S13 E12: Nice Girls Roast

VoR

VoR

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For God's sake! :D

I was actually quite happy to give Kandy a pass for an entirely decent performance this week, but they just can't help themselves, can they? Giving her the win over Gottmik was beyond ludicrous.

A clear bottom this week at least. Utica's set was agonising - you never want to evince active hostility from the judging panel, but she managed it!

Poor Symone came completely unstuck but she really didn't have a thing to worry about after THAT.
 
Last week I predicted Kandy would say bitch a lot instead of telling jokes. Shockingly, I was right.
Rose and Gottmik were head and shoulders above, but I feel like Kandy was picked as the winner of this challenge long before she took to the stage.
 
I thought that was a really good episode? Probably the best of the season :D Who knew that they just needed to VANQUISH the demonic energy of Tina Burner to lift the mood :D Speaking of Tina however, quite FUNNY she was eliminated the week before the roast challenge seeing as insult comedy is apparently her schtick.

Gottmik was great, shocked she didn't win. It feels much more even between her and Seymone in regards to the win now. Kandy was good too, I don't find her as hateable as the rest of the internet seems to. Utica was shocking. I'm almost amazed she wasn't sent home straight after calling Nina West a whale :D But at least Farrah Moan no longer has the worst roast of all time.

Heidi N Closet was RADIANT! Get her back on All Stars ASAP.
 
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Really good episode, enjoyed it more than the majority of this season.
You need the bombers as much as the home runs but Utica took it to a whole other level!! Omg.
Now just to get rid of Olivia Sux
 
I thought the mini challenge was good fun. Poor Utika but she deserved to go home.

Gottmik looked gorge in that green dress. Also loved Valentina’s gown.

Heidi looked like she got in a fight with her outfit and I was surprised no one made a joke about Nina and feet.

They want Kandy in the finale so bad, next week will be Olivia I’m sure.
 
The episode in itself was great, made better by some being good and some (Utica) being a complete torture.

I think Kandy's win was driven by her being the only one without a win so far, but I think she did very well, and some people online are going to discredit her irrespective of the challenge which is a bit tiring really. She had one episode when she came across badly which has somehow maligned her for the entirety of the season, whereas other queens can have an episode where they present themselves on an equally distasteful line but are forgiven immediately. And I don't think it's completely disassociated from the fact that she's a bigger POC with a thick accent which people have preconceived notions about in their minds. And I'm not even much of a fan, but it's so unbalanced.

Gottmik was great in this episode. I would say Rosé actually seemed more professional and is very talented at most things in the competition, but she isn't as easy to support as Gottmik and Symone, and it's interesting that she can have strong week after strong week but still feels like a bit of a distant third at this point.

Symone looked beautiful but faltered hard. The lip sync was lovely though. Olivia had a couple of funny jokes but it does feel like her inexperience is really showing. And Utica was just painful to watch but somehow the best thing about the episode.

Ranking:
1. Symone
2. Gottmik
3. Rosé
4. Kandy and Olivia
 
Utica's level of delusion is somewhat charming. I've enjoyed her in the lip syncs. But that set was terrible, cute that she apologised.

Kandy winning was totally for the narrative. But that was Gotmik's to lose. Rose remains consistently strong.

The slow on screen break down of professional Ru, between the H&M rant to giving Utica the finger has been a recent highlight. She's awful at times, but she can still be entertaining.
 
Barnacle said:
I think Kandy's win was driven by her being the only one without a win so far, but I think she did very well, and some people online are going to discredit her irrespective of the challenge which is a bit tiring really. She had one episode when she came across badly which has somehow maligned her for the entirety of the season, whereas other queens can have an episode where they present themselves on an equally distasteful line but are forgiven immediately. And I don't think it's completely disassociated from the fact that she's a bigger POC with a thick accent which people have preconceived notions about in their minds. And I'm not even much of a fan, but it's so unbalanced.
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100% agreed.
 
I absolutely hate and detest Kandy. She’s awful and I don’t find anything about her remotely likable. It has NOTHING to do with her size and race and it’s really troubling that whenever someone is being hideous they have to be forgiven because they belong to a minority.
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
I absolutely hate and detest Kandy. She’s awful and I don’t find anything about her remotely likable. It has NOTHING to do with her size and race and it’s really troubling that whenever someone is being hideous they have to be forgiven because they belong to a minority.
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But what has she actually done that is hideous and detestable??? Aside from that argument with Tamisha which now seems like a year ago.

People just seem to fall back on her having bad enunciation and saying bitch a lot(!!!). And I don't think doing the same thing every week justifies hating her either. RuPaul is the judge of the show; they all have their schtick.

It's perfectly fair to have favourites and non-favourites - it's a TV show. But she still seems to be getting daily social media abuse for nothing. There's a difference.
 
I'm sure Kandy is a lovely person, that's really not the issue. Anyone who's sending her abuse over this is clearly a moron or worse.

But the show *is* judging her by a wildly different standard to everybody else. It's not just one week, it's literally every week, and it removes any sense that the show is a level playing field in which it's worth getting invested in who has performed better or worse in any given challenge because in her case, it is absolutely crystal clear that it does. not. matter.

Yes, all reality TV is engineered to a degree, but the laziness and audacity with which it's deployed towards her really does take some enjoyment out of it, and as a long-time viewer of the show, I don't think I should feel guilty for resenting that.
 
VoR said:
I'm sure Kandy is a lovely person, that's really not the issue. Anyone who's sending her abuse over this is clearly a moron or worse.

But the show *is* judging her by a wildly different standard to everybody else. It's not just one week, it's literally every week, and it removes any sense that the show is a level playing field in which it's worth getting invested in who has performed better or worse in any given challenge because in her case, it is absolutely crystal clear that it does. not. matter.

Yes, all reality TV is engineered to a degree, but the laziness and audacity with which it's deployed towards her really does take some enjoyment out of it, and as a long-time viewer of the show, I don't think I should feel guilty for resenting that.
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But again, where was the reaction when Alyssa was getting the same treatment? The show has always protected the bigger personalities.
 
You really think Alyssa was carried through the show to the degree Kandy is being?

Yes she was a big personality, but I really don't think that gave her a pass. She was also a talented dancer, legitimately funny and rocked some interesting runways. She went out at about the right time on S5 and if anything she got a bit of a raw deal on AllStars.

I just don't see the comparison I'm afraid.
 
Her whole ”aura” is detestable. She’s delusional and aggressive; the Tamisha argument and that time she had a rant on the main stage are two examples that for me are enough to not like her as a viewer. Why is this even questionable?
 
No one should ever recieve death threats and such, so that part shouldn’t even be part of the argument. Especially not when it seems that every queen is recieving them.
 
VoR said:
You really think Alyssa was carried through the show to the degree Kandy is being?

Yes she was a big personality, but I really don't think that gave her a pass. She was also a talented dancer, legitimately funny and rocked some interesting runways. She went out at about the right time on S5 and if anything she got a bit of a raw deal on AllStars.

I just don't see the comparison I'm afraid.
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I think Alyssa got allowances made for her on the basis that they found her schtick funny. If she was competing on Season 11 instead of AS2 and S5 then I don't think she'd struggle to make the top four. She just happened to be in the most competitive casts.

You say Alyssa was legitimately funny, which is subjective, and never actually translated in the challenges. Kandy did well this week, even if she wasn't the clear winner.

Shangela is a similar instance. She made the top five in S3 despite being far more rough around the edges than Kandy is now. Gottmik was pushed through the dancing challenge despite clearly being the worst of the week. They kept Vanjie along for as long as possible because she was the season's biggest personality.

They've made allowances since year one; it happens practically every season! Look at Rebecca Glasscock.

I don't understand why it warrants to much criticism when it comes to Kandy. It's not like she's outlasted a particularly strong group of girls. I can't think of a week when she's been worse than the people who have been criticised.
 
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I don’t hate Kandy, I just find it frustrating to see that she can literally do the same one thing and be treated as a revelation week on week. For me, it started with that improv challenge where I assumed she was bottom two for mumbling her way through some unfunny, awkward banger, only to get praised to high heaven.
 
As I said, this isn't Kandy's fault, it's a producer thing at this point. And you're right that there have always been queens who get a bit of a pass for being good TV. That's absolutely part of the game.

I think for me the difference is that incrementally, each season, the producers seem to be making less and less effort to hide their favouritism or make it make narrative sense. At this point, what we're shown as an audience vs what the judges are telling Kandy is just so wildly different that I genuinely find it surreal to watch. This week, granted, she did very well. But Gottmik was absolute LEAGUES ahead of her.

I feel like the likes of Shangela, Alyssa, Vanjie etc did get criticised for being rough around the edges, or for weak performances. They just didn't get placed in the bottom 2 every time. With Kandy, the show keeps trying to tell us that she's amazing, but that simply isn't what I'm seeing, at all. There's nothing there to back it up.
 
Ultimately I think people just don't particularly like Kandy and I feel like they try to dress it up with logic when they'd feel the same if she aced Snatch Game and nailed dancing.
 
VoR said:
As I said, this isn't Kandy's fault, it's a producer thing at this point. And you're right that there have always been queens who get a bit of a pass for being good TV. That's absolutely part of the game.

I think for me the difference is that incrementally, each season, the producers seem to be making less and less effort to hide their favouritism or make it make narrative sense. At this point, what we're shown as an audience vs what the judges are telling Kandy is just so wildly different that I genuinely find it surreal to watch. This week, granted, she did very well. But Gottmik was absolute LEAGUES ahead of her.

I feel like the likes of Shangela, Alyssa, Vanjie etc did get criticised for being rough around the edges, or for weak performances. They just didn't get placed in the bottom 2 every time. With Kandy, the show keeps trying to tell us that she's amazing, but that simply isn't what I'm seeing, at all. There's nothing there to back it up.
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I think she's warranted more criticism on certain weeks than she's received too! I just don't think that's unique to Kandy. She doesn't feel like a frontrunner, they've pointed out her flaws in the past and she never actually won anything until this week. It all just feels a little overblown (as I write paragraphs about the topic, but still!).
 
Barnacle said:
Ultimately I think people just don't particularly like Kandy and I feel like they try to dress it up with logic when they'd feel the same if she aced Snatch Game and nailed dancing.
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Well I disagree, and honestly I find it quite offensive that you imply that we simply MUST be secret racists if we don't find what she does enjoyable.

That said, I do not subscribe to RS's theory that she was an 'unpleasant aura'. :D
 
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VoR said:
Well I disagree, and honestly I find it quite offensive that you imply that we simply MUST be secret racists if we don't find what she does enjoyable.

That said, I do not subscribe to RS's theory that she was an 'unpleasant aura'. :D
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Firstly, it wasn't a personal attack on you. But do you not think that there might be some connection to her race and background when one of the most common slights on her seems to be that she has bad enunciation and has a particular way of speaking?
 
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Of course, I don't doubt for a second that a lot of the hate she gets is motivated by her race and/or size. But I think it's really unfair, not to mention dangerous, to try to shut down legitimate criticism of her by implying that it all comes from that place, and that is how what you posted came across.
 
I think there's definitely a racial element to some of the criticism of Kandy that's been seen online this season (not necessarily here on Moopy before our resident Sharon Osbournes get going), but I wonder if it's also partly down to the fact that she's seen as more 'rough' and 'street' and any other euphemism for someone more visibly from a working-class background than a lot of other queens who get onto the show. I wonder how many people complaining about her saying "bitch" as a substitute for humour had a problem when Gigi Goode did exactly the same thing last season.
 
VoR said:
Of course, I don't doubt for a second that a lot of the hate she gets is motivated by her race and/or size. But I think it's really unfair, not to mention dangerous, to try to shut down legitimate criticism of her by implying that it all comes from that place, and that is how what you posted came across.
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I don't think it's unfair to say that she's received a different reaction from the Twitterverse and elsewhere than other, whiter, quieter queens receive when they have bad weeks.

I've made about five posts chatting to you about your argument and have said that I agree that allowances are made for her, but make of that what you will I guess. :bruised:
 
COB said:
I think there's definitely a racial element to some of the criticism of Kandy that's been seen online this season (not necessarily here on Moopy before our resident Sharon Osbournes get going), but I wonder if it's also partly down to the fact that she's seen as more 'rough' and 'street' and any other euphemism for someone more visibly from a working-class background than a lot of other queens who get onto the show. I wonder how many people complaining about her saying "bitch" as a substitute for humour had a problem when Gigi Goode did exactly the same thing last season.
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I agree. It isn't just that she's an ethnic-minority, it's her speech and her language and manner. But the two are linked.
 
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COB said:
I think there's definitely a racial element to some of the criticism of Kandy that's been seen online this season (not necessarily here on Moopy before our resident Sharon Osbournes get going),
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Really? :manson:
 
@Barnacle - I appreciate the measured debate, I really do. I just think if you're going to make sweeping statements like that it's important to distinguish whether you mean 'people on the internet are often racist' (which I don't think anybody would argue) vs 'the posts about Kandy in this specific forum are racist'. That's what's got my back up a little bit, TBH.
 
VoR said:
Well I disagree, and honestly I find it quite offensive that you imply that we simply MUST be secret racists if we don't find what she does enjoyable.

That said, I do not subscribe to RS's theory that she was an 'unpleasant aura'. :D
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Well, don’t. :tongue:

I don’t feel the least apologetic about it, and again it has nothing to do with whatever race/size/gender she is.

What’s racist is when you see race everywhere and in every discussion and when you lower your expectations when it comes to minorities as if they’re allowed to be in a certain why because we can’t och expect them to know better.
 
It's true, the people concerned about queens of colour disproportionately getting death threats are the real racists!
 
VoR said:
@Barnacle - I appreciate the measured debate, I really do. I just think if you're going to make sweeping statements like that it's important to distinguish whether you mean 'people on the internet are often racist' (which I don't think anybody would argue) vs 'the posts about Kandy in this specific forum are racist'. That's what's got my back up a little bit, TBH.
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But I don't think that would be right because I do think some of the response to her on here is linked to who she is and where she's from. She warrants criticism like anyone else, but plenty of people on here have been grand statements about how awful she is and they shouldn't be immune from criticism just because it isn't Twitter. And again, they aren't as ready to jump on it when other queens get similar treatment.

I'm not calling people outright racist, because I think it's mostly unconscious, but to deny racial bias seems more dangerous than me making the argument in the first place. We all have it. I was ready to rant about Kandy in that Ball episode too, and probably would have had I not still been away from Moopy.
 
COB said:
It's true, the people concerned about queens of colour disproportionately getting death threats are the real racists!
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Not knowingly, but it’s certainly there hidden behind your well meaning motives.

(I don’t mean you or anyone in particular, it’s a general thing and we’re all guilty of it to a certain extent)
 
RaspberrySwirl said:
Well, don’t. :tongue:

What’s racist is when you see race everywhere and in every discussion and when you lower your expectations when it comes to minorities as if they’re allowed to be in a certain why because we can’t och expect them to know better.
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Are we though? She and Olivia rank bottom for me at the minute and Symone ranks top. I just don't think she merits the onslaught. And I don't think disliking her aura is enough to justify it.
 
Barnacle said:
I'm not calling people racist, because I think it's mostly unconscious, but to deny racial bias seems more dangerous than me making the argument in the first place. We all have it. I was ready to rant about Kandy in that Ball episode too, and probably would have had I not still been away from Moopy.
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Yes! This is what I meant with the Sharon Osbourne reference - people are far too ready to start screeching the second they might be possibly asked to examine themselves and their biases, which we ALL FUCKING HAVE.
 
Who's screeching? I think myself and @Barnacle (and RS) were having a perfectly measured discussion before you dropped that little snark-bomb.
 
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