UK Charts/ Midweeks 2023

[POP!]

I actually like the pre-2009 (I think) US model in a post-streaming era. The Billboard 200 was a current albums only chart, and treated as a main chart, and then there was a separate catalog chart. I don't think streaming needs to be eliminated from the equation for that to work. That way the main chart is still relevant including pure sales and streams but not clogged up by catalog albums and GH.

 

[Alla]

I don't understand the problem separating them, don't they do it with compilations? Anyway, the charts are such a mess that are almost irrelevant these days.

 

[octophone]

I don't understand the problem separating them, don't they do it with compilations? Anyway, the charts are such a mess that are almost irrelevant these days.

I'm not sure what's symptomatic of what. Have the charts become irrelevant because of the mess streaming made of them or did streaming and its immediacy make the charts irrelevant?

 

[RJN]

I think the charts have become irrelevant partially because there’s so much access to different music. Maybe some people discover music from the charts, but there are many songs that are popular in my social world but aren’t charting. I’m sure this was true in the past too, but now everyone has access to everything so it’s easier

 

[RJN]

on Spotify, random people from my high school or college are rarely listening to what’s in the top charts. It seems like they’re listening to their own nichd

 

[Alla]

I think the charts have become irrelevant partially because there’s so much access to different music. Maybe some people discover music from the charts, but there are many songs that are popular in my social world but aren’t charting. I’m sure this was true in the past too, but now everyone has access to everything so it’s easier

That's actually a very good point.

 

[funky]

People really aren’t listening to music any differently in my opinion. Not in terms of formatting but in terms of behaviour. It’s simply the way it’s measured now is so different.

So in the 80s my dad would buy a new Dire Straits album, go home, maybe listen to it once. Put it away, maybe get it out again in a few weeks. Meanwhile he’ll put on Sgt Pepper or The Wall or Otis Blue for the 50th time. He’ll listen to his soul mixtapes or The Small Faces greatest hits in the car over and over. His overall contribution to the chart: that one Dire Straits purchase.

Dads are still doing the same thing but now they’re doing it on Spotify and hence the album charts are full of 70s and 80s greatest hits. And that brand new rock album gets a week at #6 and is gone the week after.

 

[funky]

And to continue that, the new album that gets lost among the greatest hits and gets one week in the chart is likely then forgotten by the label, will get no more singles or videos or plugs which means less jobs and freelancers and creatives working for the label because now they can just make a quick buck from another million streams of Rumours.

No wonder people like Raye are forging their own path…

 

[Shoat]

All of the above is very true. The charts simply aren't measuring the same things anymore; nor can they.

The other new element that's crept into the mix are published playlists. People passively listening to the hits on Capital FM has never counted towards the sales chart. However the more modern equivalent of people telling Alexa to put on Spotify's "Top Songs" playlist now does.

It influences the singles chart far more than the albums, but you could really see the impact on the recent Christmas charts, with the "sales" positions almost perfectly reflecting the order of Spotify's Christmas playlist. Outside of Christmas, it will also be a large reason why everything is so SLOW. Once a song reaches number one, it will be force-fed down throats for months to come. Essentially the charts are now a weird hybrid of sales and airplay.

 

[lolly]

@Devil @MegaDolly we were talking about Raye v Lewis Capaldi in her thread, but this seems more suitable for here:


1 Lewis Capaldi - Pointless (29,671) [17,252 physicals, 6,798 downloads, 5,621 streaming]
2 Raye feat. 070 Shake - Escapism (17,442)

 

[funky]

Uuuuuuugh

The Westlife of the 20s with his 27 formats and versions

 

[lolly]

Raye sold 45.6k last week, and I doubt she'll fall far short this week. Is it too much to hope that he's spunked his load too early? He's #1, #2 and #4 on iTunes, and physicals are often heavily frontloaded, and that's where his lead is from?

 

[MegaDolly]

Yes it’s front-loaded with the CDs he was flogging for 99p last week. He was on TikTok earlier trying to encourage people to download it so we’ll see if that mades a further dent on Wednesday. RAYE’s streaming is 5x what Lewis is doing but I don’t think she will try and keep ahead of him. Her traction is far more organic and he will have a hard fall next week but I guess they won’t really care. I think there is one day of streaming missing.

 

[lolly]

Yes it’s front-loaded with the CDs he was flogging for 99p last week. He was on TikTok earlier trying to encourage people to download it so we’ll see if that mades a further dent on Wednesday. RAYE’s streaming is 5x what Lewis is doing but I don’t think she will try and keep ahead of him. Her traction is far more organic and he will have a hard fall next week but I guess they won’t really care. I think there is one day of streaming missing.

It all feels very desperate for someone who doesn't really NEED it. I mean I know nobody is going to turn down a #1 single, but I don't see it making that much of a difference to his career, or the success of his second album if it didn't get it.

 

[MegaDolly]

It all feels very desperate for someone who doesn't really NEED it. I mean I know nobody is going to turn down a #1 single, but I don't see it making that much of a difference to his career, or the success of his second album if it didn't get it.

He did this for Forget Me. I suppose the money he loses from the CDs will be made up with his tour and it’ll be in the record book that he has another number 1 and will get more press attention. I’m not sure his fanbase like the song much but they will buy as many copies as possible to get a message from him.

 

[lolly]

I didn't realise he did the same for Forget Me. That did at least manage a decent chart run (albeit only one week at #1), so there was some crossover appeal, although not as much as some of his earlier hits.

Just looking at his Wikipedia, I can see he hasn't massively broken the US yet - although Someone You Loved got to #1, the album only got to #20, and Forget Me only managed #95. So I guess this is all more hype to launch him in a big way in the US later this year. So yes, presumably all those cheap CD singles are a loss leader. They won't want him to fail with a Sheeran co-write.

Like you say, Raye's success is far more organic, and I'm just glad she got a week at #1 in already, even though I imagine she's got a good chance again next week, if he pulls it off this week.

 

[lolly]

Obviously you can stream for free and downloads are cheaper, but it's odd to think all those physicals which have got him to midweek #1 would have been disqualified for being too cheap decades ago.

 

[funky]

Raye is still growing on downloads too, however small. She hasn’t really performed on iTunes up to now but she’s climbing now. I think she’s yet to fully cross over yet which suggests the song has legs yet.

 

[Devil]

Yeah even if he does get it this week it’ll just be for a week. A day of streaming missing should mean the gap is really more like 7k, and assuming his physicals are mainly accounted for (I’m assuming so, but potentially he’ll re-promote them or ship some later in the week) then I’d say she certainly has a good shot to get the #1 back later in the week.

Tomorrow’s figures will be a bit clearer.

 

[Devil]

All of the above is very true. The charts simply aren't measuring the same things anymore; nor can they.

The other new element that's crept into the mix are published playlists. People passively listening to the hits on Capital FM has never counted towards the sales chart. However the more modern equivalent of people telling Alexa to put on Spotify's "Top Songs" playlist now does.

It influences the singles chart far more than the albums, but you could really see the impact on the recent Christmas charts, with the "sales" positions almost perfectly reflecting the order of Spotify's Christmas playlist. Outside of Christmas, it will also be a large reason why everything is so SLOW. Once a song reaches number one, it will be force-fed down throats for months to come. Essentially the charts are now a weird hybrid of sales and airplay.

And the most ironic point being that airplay as a method of consumption is one that doesn’t count toward the chart. Even more crazy given if it was included (which surely there is now a strong argument for, or at least a much flimsier one against compared to the sales era) the charts would actually be alot more varied and quicker moving given the much wider range of songs, artists and genres that appear in its top fifty and the fact the biggest stations usually only playlist most songs for 6 to 8 weeks maximum. Like a complete opposite to the sales eras in the past where the airplay charts were stale and slow but what people purchased was much more varied and quick moving.

 

[lolly]

Yes, I suspect they will put some more CD singles up on his website. I only looked for the first time this evening and there were 3 different singles, all having been available signed and unsigned (although now all sold out) for 99p each, with free postage. I'm sure if they have gone to that effort for a #1 there will be some more found. And/or some new versions arriving on iTunes later in the week.

 

[lolly]

I've always been very against airplay being included for the reason being it was entirely passive listening, but that ship has sailed as an argument looking at the chart now. I can't say I'm really in favour of it now, but as you say, I'm definitely not as against it.

I don't know how potential airplay 'sales' would be calculated, but there are enough different streaming ratio conversions what with standard and accelerated, paid and ad funded that the charts are essentially an equation already anyway. And Billboard and other countries have managed it for years. I assume it's based on the reach or audience of the station/show?

 

[funky]

Radio 2 is still so dominant on radio that some artists who haven't had hits in years would likely feature in the chart. It might give legacy acts the impetus to record more music. And, it would bring some much needed variety to the charts again. Not even a fan of country but the fact that there's hardly ever a smidge of it in the charts any more is a bit sad. I miss the variety of the singles chart the most.

 

[Devil]

I've always been very against airplay being included for the reason being it was entirely passive listening, but that ship has sailed as an argument looking at the chart now. I can't say I'm really in favour of it now, but as you say, I'm definitely not as against it.

I don't know how potential airplay 'sales' would be calculated, but there are enough different streaming ratio conversions what with standard and accelerated, paid and ad funded that the charts are essentially an equation already anyway. And Billboard and other countries have managed it for years. I assume it's based on the reach or audience of the station/show?

Correct, it’s based on audience.

For me the biggest thing is the figures (albeit they are grossed up guesses etc, but still must have some validity) are rather huge - like the #20 song for the week reaches an audience of like 20 million people. So I’m thinking that’s given all its plays throughout the week, the total audience on those stations at those times add up to that. Which is a rather huge number - from memory they #1 streamed song each week must do about 10 million or so streams across all the formats? If that genuinely is right, and we are now measuring consumption of music (which isnt really up for debate?), then surely we are missing a huge amount of the population and how they consume music? That might have flown when the hurdle was to purchase an actual song or album, but now that is no longer required to chart I do struggle to see why parts of the population aren’t measured in the current format.

 

[Shoat]

I'd normally be against airplay being brought int the chart. I'd always much preferred the UK format to Billboard's - excluding airplay meant the charts more genuinely reflected what songs were beloved by the wider public. Airplay doesn't reflect anything but the tastes and commercial decisions of a small number of radio executives.

But as everyone has said, we seem to be past that point anyway. If the Spotify interns can influence the chart with their playlists, then why not go the whole hog and build in the Radio 2 playlist committee.

 

[MegaDolly]

It does seem a bit ridiculous that an artist can spend weeks accumulating as many physical CD sales as they can and then drop them all at once in the chart when they think they can get #1 or will be denied another #1 by another artist *cough* Harry Styles. Lewis is not the first and won’t be the last but still.

 

[Devil]

Well they did it for about twenty years with pre-orders of singles and downloads over six weeks before unleashing them on the public in the 90s-10s so we can’t act like it’s new. It’s just more pronounced now because streaming makes most things available from release.

The charts would’ve looked very different in ‘our era’ had things been released as they were sent to radio/promotion.

 

[Raining on Me]

Sounds like the modern equivalent of the re-release with bonus tracks.

Yes and I think we forget sometimes how unscrupulous the charts could be, constant re-releases, sometimes with a brand new hit, sometimes nothing more than a remix tacked on, but either way whacking on another £10+ for you to fork out, or if you couldn't justify it, leaving you feeling kinda shitty if you'd bought the original. And the very worst thing about this was when albums that were already successful were doing it when they didn't even need to. Double platinum with four hits? Not nearly enough thank you, record this one new track, no no you don't need it for your next album, and stick £15 on it and we'll call it DELUXE. They'll never know the difference and if you're a REAL FAN of course you don't need to EAT.

Fuck off. And the singles chart was just as ridiculous really as joyous as it was to watch unfold. Also as much as I loved that era I remember very clearly there was a bit of longing for the occasional long-running number one. Which of course has gone ridiculously the other way now...

The difference with all of it though - people still had to actively lay down their cash and make a deliberate choice to PICK and buy the music they wanted - to the point of actually going out and into a shop - however much the majority of purchases would've been influenced by the power of radio (which, on that subject, always made Steps' success so impressive back then when they didn't get big radio support).

Definitely needs to be an archive chart of sorts and I've said it for years but some way for Spotify to only register sales through tracks consciously sought out and played or saved to personal playlists rather than passively through the official channels, which really should serve as nothing more than a list of what's popular. Of course they have zero incentive to do that and I'm not sure how you'd implement it from a technical standpoint.

 

[Raining on Me]

Well they did it for about twenty years with pre-orders of singles and downloads over six weeks before unleashing them on the public in the 90s-10s so we can’t act like it’s new. It’s just more pronounced now because streaming makes most things available from release.

The charts would’ve looked very different in ‘our era’ had things been released as they were sent to radio/promotion.

It really is nuts to think we lived in a era when a song would be "revealed" via airplay/video or possibly a TV performance, and then we'd often have to wait about SIX WEEKS, sometimes more, to actually play the damn thing. The amount of times a song felt overplayed and tired before it was even available was ludicrous

That's definitely one improvement now at least...

 

[Ellie]

It really is nuts to think we lived in a era when a song would be "revealed" via airplay/video or possibly a TV performance, and then we'd often have to wait about SIX WEEKS, sometimes more, to actually play the damn thing. The amount of times a song felt overplayed and tired before it was even available was ludicrous

That's definitely one improvement now at least...

I think the last time I remember that happening was with Uptown Funk.

 

[D5K]

It really is nuts to think we lived in a era when a song would be "revealed" via airplay/video or possibly a TV performance, and then we'd often have to wait about SIX WEEKS, sometimes more, to actually play the damn thing. The amount of times a song felt overplayed and tired before it was even available was ludicrous

That's definitely one improvement now at least...

It's pure nostalgia but I do miss those days; getting to like a new song and the excitement and anticipation building to see when it finally released and how it performed. At least that meant each song had a focal big bang week (not to be confused with big band week), instead of nowadays where things take ages to come and go.

 

[Sheena]

But it's almost cyclical- because in my 80s childhood, you heard a song and it was generally (not always) available and things gradually crept into the public consciousness. I always hated the "big bang and out" era- everything just became so disposable.

Albeit that the current stagnation is far worse.

 

[lolly]

Yes, as someone with a nostalgia for an earlier period, everything being spunked on week one (and songs being written off often if that disappointed) was just trash. The current stagnation (and methodology) is dreary, but I do like the fact that songs can find their place. The OCC just need to stop them hanging around for months when they have had several months in the spotlight.

Much better in the 80s when the chart was decided by just a few hundred shops nationally and with the outrageous rigging and manipulation which happened as a result.

I think your preference probably depends most on whatever era it was when you first got into following the charts.

 

[dmlaw]

You have to assume that if this plot gets Lewis Capaldi a number one then a lot more people will be trying it in the future.

 

[D5K]

I’ve re-read this thread but still can’t quite tell - what exactly is this plot Lewis Capaldi’s using?

 

[AGinAg (37)]

I’ve re-read this thread but still can’t quite tell - what exactly is this plot Lewis Capaldi’s using?

He released a 99p CD

 

[lolly]

Essentially it's flogging multiple CD singles, some signed, for 99p with free p&p, and multiple versions digitally.

 

[lolly]

He's returning to the 'week one' method this week (as it was originally released a few weeks before Christmas), but taking advantage of the fact that rules that were in effect back in the 90s/00s regarding price and multiple formats are no longer in place.

Why they chose to release it into the Christmas clogged charts initially I don't know. It was never going to find a place then. Still I doubt it made much difference sales wise (or at least those who paid for a download are likely those buying 99p CD singles), and I imagine other than avid chart watchers, hardly anyone knew it had been released.

 

[Raining on Me]

I also cannot understand how watching videos in any way equates to album streams. I've tried to read and understand the explanation posted, but even that says video viewing is now about 6% of music consumed. Um okay, but isn't that still a small enough percentage that surely it can just be applied to singles?!

When they say videos, I assume they mean anything posted on YouTube etc, so if it's an official album tracklisting (with lyrics or some such playing as a video) that makes more sense as I suppose it's no different to streaming on Spotify.

But how you match up proper video plays for actual singles to album sales...I can't even process it. God why is everything so confusing

See also: TV ratings in a streaming era

 

[dmlaw]

I'd quite like to see a few legacy acts trying the multiple CD singles plan that Capaldi is using. I bet Madonna or Kylie could scare up 25,000 CD single purchases from the fanbase and then drop them all on the same chart week.