Kevin Spacey (in response to child sexual assault allegations): I’m a QUEEN!

at this point i'm just relieved he can spell and use punctuation and spacing (:basil:) properly.

seriously though, i once went out with the booker of a local modelling agency to have a drink. i was about 19 and he was about 30. he was really nice and everything but i needed exactly 5 minutes to know what he was after.

i don't mean to defend sexual predators at all, if that is the casey, but i think people need to be more responsible about the situations they put themselves in because there really is this thing called mixed signals.
 
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ameraal said:
at this point i'm just relieved he can spell and use punctuation and spacing (:basil:) properly.

seriously though, i once went out with the booker of a local modelling agency to have a drink. i was about 19 and he was about 30. he was really nice and everything but i needed exactly 5 minutes to know what he was after.

i don't mean to defend sexual predators at all, if that is the casey, but i think people need to be more responsible about the situations they put themselves in because there really is this thing called mixed signals.
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Not everyone has the same sense as you and a 14 year old shouldn't have to. Also there isn't a thing called mixed signals with assault, most of these stories are men preying on people weaker than them.
 
Phoenix said:
Not everyone has the same sense as you and a 14 year old shouldn't have to. Also there isn't a thing called mixed signals with assault, most of these stories are men preying on people weaker than them.
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Yeah, I thought, "That might be the case sometimes, but it's clearly not the case here. I guess it's good that you gave advice, but it clearly doesn't make sense here." Same thing I thought about this screed about Harvey Weinstein: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/mayim-bialik-feminist-harvey-weinstein.html
 
whatever i say after this will be seen as defending spacey, hopefully people can look past that prejudice, so here goes: i don't think a 14 year old should be drinking with someone twice his age in a hotel room in the first place. if you go anywhere private with someone much older/stronger than you who you don't know very well, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

yes, there are moral implications to "picking up a 14 year old, putting him on a bed and making a sexual advance" however what bugs me is why does the story finish there? was the advance verbal? was it physical? was it violent? what happened afterwards? did rapp say "i'm not into this" and that was that? or was spacey aggressive or persistent or trying to force himself after hearing "no"? i think it matters.

or is the (claimed) fact that someone made an advance towards someone much younger than them after drinking in a hotel room together enough to be dragging this out 30 years later?

and for the record i'm really not interested in the legal aspect of it, the age of consent is a subjective construct. i think here it was recently taken down to 14 and even long before that in my days at school girls and boys were having sex at that age - i thought it was way too young, but they definitely knew what they were doing. so i waited quite a bit and they fucked around, i.e. each to their own.
 
ameraal said:
whatever i say after this will be seen as defending spacey, hopefully people can look past that prejudice, so here goes: i don't think a 14 year old should be drinking with someone twice his age in a hotel room in the first place. if you go anywhere private with someone much older/stronger than you who you don't know very well, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

yes, there are moral implications to "picking up a 14 year old, putting him on a bed and making a sexual advance" however what bugs me is why does the story finish there? was the advance verbal? was it physical? was it violent? what happened afterwards? did rapp say "i'm not into this" and that was that? or was spacey aggressive or persistent or trying to force himself after hearing "no"? i think it matters.

or is the (claimed) fact that someone made an advance towards someone much younger than them after drinking in a hotel room together enough to be dragging this out 30 years later?

and for the record i'm really not interested in the legal aspect of it, the age of consent is a subjective construct. i think here it was recently taken down to 14 and even long before that in my days at school girls and boys were having sex at that age - i thought it was way too young, but they definitely knew what they were doing. so i waited quite a bit and they fucked around, i.e. each to their own.
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It says in the article that he went to Spacey's place as he was on a broadway show and these parties were common. Maybe at 14 he shouldn't have been there but it still does not excuse the abuse, the fault is always with the abuser in my opinion (he was after all 26 and at that age he should know that even hitting on a 14 year old is wrong).

The implication of the Spacey coming out now to overshadow the story is that it's ok because Spacey was drunk which is fucked up because we're mostly gay men here and I would like to think that we don't turn into pedophiles after a few drinks.

Also on top of it all, it now gives bigots more ammunition for their all gays are pedophiles thing, so he kinda hurt a community that he refused to be part of for so long.

There will be more stories coming out in the next few days just like Weinstein, Kevin apparently had a reputation.

P.S I'm not attacking you, just having a conversation.
 
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of course, phoe, same.

his coming out now is a total dick move (not to mention hiding behind "oh i don't remember") - everyone already knows, spacey, and i can just imagine some awful pr person going "we have to change the conversation".

but i don't agree with the word "abuse" being used in this instance when we don't know what really transpired. and i find it really frustrating that none of these people went on the record when it actually happened because harsh as it might sound i think that makes them complicit to this going on for so long.
 
i've read a lot of stuff about spacey and singer over the years, if even bits of it are true, it's not looking good for them.

the thing is, like with everything else, some people will be (rightfully or wrongly) dragged through the mud and others will just get away with it.
 
I was agreeing with both of you to varying extents, and I googled the guy to see if I knew who he was. Finding out his new TV series is just coming out (Star Trek Discovery) makes me feel kind of ugh about the timing now. Nobody really looks good out here, and that's before we even know what happened!
 
ameraal said:
but i don't agree with the word "abuse" being used in this instance when we don't know what really transpired. and i find it really frustrating that none of these people went on the record when it actually happened because harsh as it might sound i think that makes them complicit to this going on for so long.
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Again, you're putting so much blame on the victim. People don't come out and accuse their sexual abusers immediately especially when they're young because the mentality has always been to blame them. Not to mention the trauma of the abuse and how each person deals with it differently (there usually is shame and a lot of self blame). You can't say the victim is complicit when the system as a whole does not support him/her.

There are now 85 women who have come out and accused Weinstein and that only happened because the attitude towards victims is changing.
 
ameraal said:
of course, phoe, same.

his coming out now is a total dick move (not to mention hiding behind "oh i don't remember") - everyone already knows, spacey, and i can just imagine some awful pr person going "we have to change the conversation".

but i don't agree with the word "abuse" being used in this instance when we don't know what really transpired. and i find it really frustrating that none of these people went on the record when it actually happened because harsh as it might sound i think that makes them complicit to this going on for so long.
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You're right, that IS harsh - victims are allowed to deal with things however they want, and that includes staying quiet if that's the healthiest course of action for them. Yes it's great that there's currently some public momentum that will get people talking and expose some of the perpetrators, but there are also victims that will never speak publicly simply because it'll be too difficult for them. I don't think that makes them bad people, or "complicit" - maybe that particular label should stay on the person actually doing the abuse.
 
COB said:
You're right, that IS harsh - victims are allowed to deal with things however they want, and that includes staying quiet if that's the healthiest course of action for them. Yes it's great that there's currently some public momentum that will get people talking and expose some of the perpetrators, but there are also victims that will never speak publicly simply because it'll be too difficult for them. I don't think that makes them bad people, or "complicit" - maybe that particular label should stay on the person actually doing the abuse.
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you're both using the word victim. when do you become a victim? when someone forces themself onto you, of course, but when someone so much as makes an advance at you what are you a victim of?
 
Without wishing to dismiss the experiences of those who are genuinely traumatised, I’m getting really sick of this current narrative. The Terry Richardson business is particularly ridiculous. He takes the grimiest, sleaziest pictures imaginable and looks like the grimiest sleaze imaginable so what on earth would you expect? A few demure glamour pix, a cup of tea and a JAFFA CAKE?
 
Zu-Klara said:
Without wishing to dismiss the experiences of those who are genuinely traumatised, I’m getting really sick of this current narrative. The Terry Richardson business is particularly ridiculous. He takes the grimiest, sleaziest pictures imaginable and looks like the grimiest sleaze imaginable so what on earth would you expect? A few demure glamour pix, a cup of tea and a JAFFA CAKE?
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i think a lot of people knowlingly put themselves in that position and then cry wolf.

again i'm not putting blame on anyone who has been assaulted or attacked but being hit on by someone in a position of power who you expect something from should not come as a surprise. and you also have a responsibility to put some boundaries up.
 
Richardson's been getting called out for years - Sky Ferriera fell out with Marina Diamandis after the latter called Richardson a creep on Twitter. But it's a very capitalist model of accountability - dump them sharpish to protect the brand. I'm not into it.
 
Zu-Klara said:
Without wishing to dismiss the experiences of those who are genuinely traumatised, I’m getting really sick of this current narrative. The Terry Richardson business is particularly ridiculous. He takes the grimiest, sleaziest pictures imaginable and looks like the grimiest sleaze imaginable so what on earth would you expect? A few demure glamour pix, a cup of tea and a JAFFA CAKE?
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Mmmm, jaffa cakes....
 
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ameraal said:
being hit on by someone in a position of power who you expect something from should not come as a surprise
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The fact that you think this is the norm and there's nothing wrong with that is messed up.
 
I want to be delicate about this because it is a serious topic and obviously it's essential that victims of abuse and harassment speak out but at what point does an advance become harassment? We're getting a lot of "he propositioned me at a party"-type stories mixed in with stories of things a lot darker. I mean, people still need to be able to approach each other in order to get anywhere romantically or sexually.

On the Spacey topic, this is a really misjudged attempt at controlling the story and I'm surprised anyone thought it was a good idea. Him appearing to link his sexuality with inappropriate behaviour is really quite shitty,
 
lolly said:
Well, except it sounds like you kind of ARE.
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firstly, i differentiate between being hit on (be it by someone predatory or someone who genuinely thinks you're sending wrong signals) and being attacked or harrassed. i'm not even talking about spacey here who it seems there are too many similar stories on to be a coincidence.

Phoenix said:
The fact that you think this is the norm and there's nothing wrong with that is messed up.
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yes, i think it's very often the norm, phoenix, but i don't think it's ok at all. if anything i think people should balls up and do something about it then and there not 30 years later. yes, it's tough and people process things differently but if it all gets swept under the rug and you are complicit to that, you are complicit to the whole fucking system.
 
Ryan said:
I want to be delicate about this because it is a serious topic and obviously it's essential that victims of abuse and harassment speak out but at what point does an advance become harassment? We're getting a lot of "he propositioned me at a party"-type stories mixed in with stories of things a lot darker. I mean, people still need to be able to approach each other in order to get anywhere romantically or sexually.
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thank you for putting this so eloquently.
 
Yes well put Ryan.

We definitely still need a CHANCE to rape others and not go ahead with it.
 
Ryan said:
I want to be delicate about this because it is a serious topic and obviously it's essential that victims of abuse and harassment speak out but at what point does an advance become harassment? We're getting a lot of "he propositioned me at a party"-type stories mixed in with stories of things a lot darker. I mean, people still need to be able to approach each other in order to get anywhere romantically or sexually.
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When someone is your boss or has an effect on your career for example then propositioning you at a party is a form of harassment. There's a clear line between when you can and can't hit on someone, it usually involves common sense and an understanding of your position.
 
I don't have much to add here really, Phoenix is expressing exactly how I view the whole situation.
 
Phoenix said:
When someone is your boss or has an effect on your career for example then propositioning you at a party is a form of harassment. There's a clear line between when you can and can't hit on someone, it usually involves common sense and an understanding of your position.
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I'm not convinced it's even as clear cut as this. I agree that people in such positions do need to be careful and considerate about HOW they approach people but are we really now saying that you can't hit on someone lower down the career ladder than you at all?

There's a lot of subjectivity to this and it seems to me that the line between an advance and harassment is often about whether or not the attraction is reciprocated.
 
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