The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

[ZenGiraffe]

why are the girlies ignoring the last 3 videos i posted?

Because we can all cherry pick. I could go find three videos of random Israeli's saying abhorrent things too.

Doesn't prove any wider points though does it?

 

[AGinAg (37)]

no?

my only claim is accusing Israel of genocide is anti-semitic.

Semantics are irrelevant. Whatever word you use it all amounts to same thousands of deaths. Using the word genocide is valid way to describe mass prescribed slaughter in the name of politics/ religion, which is what it is. The death toll is now x25 higher than October 7th, is that a proportional response that doesn't venture anywhere close to genocide?

 

[COB]

the average girlie doesn't even know what river and what sea they're talking about when they chant "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," when that chant in reality calls for the eradication of the entire Jewish state.

Absolutely not, you might be used to people ceding that ground to you in other online spaces but it's not going to happen here. It's a call for the liberation of the Palestinian people, one that I've used and will continue to use and I've explained my own views behind that previously in this topic. You wanting it to mean something else doesn't mean that it does - just as flying the Palestinian flag, or posting a picture of a watermelon isn't antisemitic, neither is that slogan.

 

[COB]

The attempt to rebrand "from the river to the sea" as hate speech only came about because of the massive, worldwide outpouring of support for the people of Gaza in the form of protests, don't forget.

 

[RS]

Some people chant it because they think it means a free West Bank and Gaza and others chant it because they want a Palestine that also covers all of what today is the state of Israel.

If the latter doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel, then what does it really mean?

 

[Shaib]

“Genocide” refers to the physical destruction of an entire group that has been targeted on the basis of its identity. This is not Israel’s objective in Gaza.

Since October 7, Israel’s objective in Gaza has been to destroy Hamas, a terrorist organization that carried out an unprecedented and brutal massacre against its people, including infants, children, elderly and disabled people. The goal of Hamas is to wipe Israel and Jews off the map, and its representatives have recently reiterated that they will never stop pursuing it. That’s an example of genocidal intent.
The humane practices of the IDF disprove claims of genocidal intent, as the Israeli military sends Arabic-language warnings to Gazans prior to its airstrikes on terrorist infrastructure and legitimate military targets in the coastal enclave.
Far from reflecting genocidal intent, Israel’s temporary relocation of Palestinian civilians out of northern Gaza reflects an intention to ensure they are out of harm’s way as it undertakes a legitimate military campaign to destroy Hamas’s terrorist infrastructure, which unfortunately is embedded in and under civilian areas in Gaza.
While Israel goes to great lengths to avoid harming civilians as it targets Hamas’s weapons and operations centers in Gaza, Hamas typically proceeds to place Palestinian civilians directly in the path of the IDF’s targets. It has repeatedly called on Palestinian civilians to ignore Israel’s warnings about impending strikes and reportedly forced civilians to remain in the vicinity of military objectives, using them, like its hostages from Israel, as human shields.

 

[Shaib]

Some people chant it because they think it means a free West Bank and Gaza and others chant it because they want a Palestine that also covers all of what today is the state of Israel.

If the latter doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel, then what does it really mean?

Exactly

 

[joanne]

Because we can all cherry pick. I could go find three videos of random Israeli's saying abhorrent things too.

Doesn't prove any wider points though does it?

this is where you are criminally misinformed. the "martyrdom" concept is not believed by "fringe extremists" but rather a dominating narrative fed to Palestinian children.

on the other hand, Israeli children are not taught to hate Palestinians en masse in the same way. the schools and spaces that do are fringe extremists.

 

[joanne]

Some people chant it because they think it means a free West Bank and Gaza and others chant it because they want a Palestine that also covers all of what today is the state of Israel.

If the latter doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel, then what does it really mean?

true.

most chant it to "end the occupation" (meaning all of Israel), not only the West Bank.

i highly recommend Corey Gil-Shuster's YouTube channel where he interviews Palestinians and Israelis daily.

 

[Jark]

it is a bit scary to see how much propaganda has been eaten up. sure Israel and the IDF's intentions are pure. sure they want to kill as few innocents as possible and one of the world's most sophisticated armies just happens to be really bad at doing that. sure all Palestinian kids are raised ready to die for the cause of murdering Jews. nobody in this territory made up of more than 50% under-18s actually wants to live! it's just a bunch of child terrorists waiting for the call!

 

[RJN]

“From the river to the sea” CLEARLY means different things to different people

 

[COB]

Clearly - so therefore saying that it's an unequivocal call for genocide is out of order, right?

 

[RJN]

@joanne @Shaib I fully understand wanting Israel to be the “good guy.” It’s what I learned as a kid and I hate the thought of people using my religion as an excuse to harm people. But when you look past that and see what’s actually happening, it just isn’t the case. It has power and is using it to kill innocent people (and Hamas, but not at a proportional rate). Yeah, terrible things are happening all over the world without much coverage, which is depressing, but that doesn’t change the basic facts of what is happening in Gaza.

The Israeli government is trying to present itself as doing the right thing and protecting its citizens, but it’s just not backed up its actions. Killing so many people and destroying all civilian infrastructure isn’t humane

 

[RS]

Clearly - so therefore saying that it's an unequivocal call for genocide is out of order, right?

It’s not a call for genocide. But its consequences might lead to the end of Jewish precense in the area. Not by genocide but by mass emigration.

If the latter doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel, then what does it really mean?

And to paraphrase my question; I also don’t believe in the idea of ethnostates, but if two or more ethnicities are at war with each other and a multiethnic state couldn’t guarantee everyone’s safety, then yes, I’d rather there will be a solution with two different (but equal and free) states.

I’m trying to think why this would be treated differently from say apartheid South africa where there was no question in a solution of one multi ethnic state with a majority rule, but I that was an entirely different set up where you had a small minority ruling over and enslaving a big majority. In the case of Israel and Palestine it’s more of two different states where the smaller is also occupied by the bigger.

 

[COB]

Some people chant it because they think it means a free West Bank and Gaza and others chant it because they want a Palestine that also covers all of what today is the state of Israel.

If the latter doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel, then what does it really mean?

I don't know, you'd have to ask those nebulous "other people" that. All I know is that attempting to make it into some sort of forbidden, proscribed phrase and classed as hate speech (as the pro-Israel side has tried to since October) is the sort of chilling of speech that we should all be calling out in the strongest terms.

 

[RS]

I don't know, you'd have to ask those nebulous "other people" that. All I know is that attempting to make it into some sort of forbidden, proscribed phrase and classed as hate speech (as the pro-Israel side has tried to since October) is the sort of chilling of speech that we should all be calling out in the strongest terms.

I never said it should be forbidden, and I don’t even think that the sane majority who want it understand its consequences.

Read my post above

 

[RJN]

Clearly - so therefore saying that it's an unequivocal call for genocide is out of order, right?

Yes, saying that all people who say it are antisemitic/genocidal is out of order.

But acting like nobody is saying it for anti-Semitic reasons isn’t very fair, because many people are using it to mean the destruction of Israel, a country, which while doing terrible terrible things, is home to half the worlds Jewish population

 

[RJN]

The only thing I want forbidden is the word girlie

 

[COB]

Yes, saying that all people who say it are antisemitic/genocidal is out of order.

But acting like nobody is saying it for anti-Semitic reasons isn’t very fair, because many people are using it to mean the destruction of Israel, a country, which while doing terrible terrible things, is home to half the worlds Jewish population

That's conflating Israel with Jewish people again though, isn't it?

 

[Generic Account]

That's conflating Israel with Jewish people again though, isn't it?

I don't think so? The Israel government's actions =/= the right of Israeli people to live there. The government isn't the nation.

 

[RS]

Let’s put it this way; if the Indian subcontinent was about to gain its independence today; would you oppose the founding of an independent India and Pakistan?

 

[RJN]

That's conflating Israel with Jewish people again though, isn't it?

I really don’t know how to answer that any better than @Rowan Tree 🌳 just did, but the phrase makes me, as a Jewish (not Israeli) person, feel attacked. I’m not trying to ban it, I don’t think everyone who says it has genocidal intent, but that’s just what it invokes, and I think a lot of people in the world are having a hard time explaining that without coming across as defending the actions of Israel

 

[COB]

Listen, maybe I'm in a bubble but everyone I know who supports Palestinian liberation fully agrees that the Jewish people have a right to live there, as does everyone else, with everyone having the same rights. That's the entire point!

 

[COB]

Good to know that a moderator of this forum thinks that I say things that 'invoke' genocidal intent, I guess

 

[RJN]

Good to know that a moderator of this forum thinks that I say things that 'invoke' genocidal intent, I guess

I meant that it invokes me feeling attacked, not genocidal intent. I’m sorry that’s how it came across, and I definitely don’t think you have genocidal intent

 

[Generic Account]

Listen, maybe I'm in a bubble but everyone I know who supports Palestinian liberation fully agrees that the Jewish people have a right to live there, as does everyone else, with everyone having the same rights. That's the entire point!

I think it is a bubble. I am very opposed to the Israeli government and its actions but am having a hard time seeing friends and family flippantly sharing posts on social media which border on being pro-Hamas and opposed to the very existence of Israel on the basis of it being land stolen from the Palestinian people.

I wish people would take the time to consider how they express their support for the people of Gaza because whilst it is so important to protest and to be outraged and to take action, there is potential to go down the line of forming staunch opinions on the people of Israel and their right to a home there based on the actions of those in power. The foundation of the Israeli state came as a result of centuries of deeply rooted antisemitism in the west and persecution of a people, and that didn't vanish after WW2.

I'm far from an expert, but nobody shouldn't feel uncomfortable voicing concerns about the language and vernacular used amongst some on the pro-Gaza side, even when some other views are shared. Language has power.

 

[ZenGiraffe]

Good to know that a moderator of this forum thinks that I say things that 'invoke' genocidal intent, I guess

That's clearly not what @RJN said and suggesting otherwise is deeply unhelpful

 

[funky]

i really have been trying to be respectful and civil in this discussion. i'm sorry if i'm coming off a bit snarky. i'm just offering a strongly pro-Israel stance because Moopy is predominently pro-Palestine. (i did mention i am both pro-Israel and pro-Palestine). i'm not using stan lingo to be cynical but to lighten up the room. it's also hard not to use stan lingo with all these avatars staring at me.

@Funky "this is not about anti-semitism, this is about the Israeli government"

it is not about the Israeli government, it is about hatred towards the Jewish government.

how many outraged girlies were raging (online and on the streets) when the Afghanistani, Congolese, Sudanese, and Yemeni government were killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the last decade?

let's be real. the outrage about Gaza is mainly driven by hatred towards Jews.

no one was this mad when 15 million Yemeni children were starving and displaced or when nearly 1 million Congolese were killed. and i'm not saying "everyone was silent about those other conflicts, so let's be silent about this one," but i'm saying "everyone was silent about those conflicts, but are fuming about this one because they hate Jews."

and i bring up Hitler because people in the West tend to believe they're past anti-semitism... we're not.

You make an awful lot of quite disparaging assumptions in this post.

Let me just clarify some things for you on the more slanderous end:

I have no hatred towards Jews and I resent the implication.

I’m not pro-Palestine anything. I’m pro not innocent people being killed recklessly and needlessly.

I don’t hate Netanyahu’s government because they’re Jewish. It has nothing to do with religion to me whatsoever. You’re making it about religion. You’re preoccupied with the idea - that default setting is blinding you to the fact that maybe the Israeli government are actually doing some terrible things.

You seem to imply that the ‘West’ is made up entirely of ignorant non-Jewish people who just have a complete disregard for Jews and Judaism. Maybe we don’t feel the need to point out it out because we’re able to separate where you are not, but I am much closer to Jewish customs and culture that you could ever know. The industry I have predominantly worked in means I have had many, many Jewish colleagues and the most important person in my life outside of my immediate family is Jewish. Not that any of that matters, but just so you know while you’re calling me out for hating Jews.

 

[AGinAg (37)]

I have genocidal intent reading this topic.

 

[Jark]

Good to know that a moderator of this forum thinks that I say things that 'invoke' genocidal intent, I guess

this is a bit unfair on @RJN who has been super level headed in every post given in this thread and has a right to say how a particular phrase feels to him.

 

[funky]

“Genocide” refers to the physical destruction of an entire group that has been targeted on the basis of its identity. This is not Israel’s objective in Gaza.

Since October 7, Israel’s objective in Gaza has been to destroy Hamas, a terrorist organization that carried out an unprecedented and brutal massacre against its people, including infants, children, elderly and disabled people. The goal of Hamas is to wipe Israel and Jews off the map, and its representatives have recently reiterated that they will never stop pursuing it. That’s an example of genocidal intent.
The humane practices of the IDF disprove claims of genocidal intent, as the Israeli military sends Arabic-language warnings to Gazans prior to its airstrikes on terrorist infrastructure and legitimate military targets in the coastal enclave.
Far from reflecting genocidal intent, Israel’s temporary relocation of Palestinian civilians out of northern Gaza reflects an intention to ensure they are out of harm’s way as it undertakes a legitimate military campaign to destroy Hamas’s terrorist infrastructure, which unfortunately is embedded in and under civilian areas in Gaza.
While Israel goes to great lengths to avoid harming civilians as it targets Hamas’s weapons and operations centers in Gaza, Hamas typically proceeds to place Palestinian civilians directly in the path of the IDF’s targets. It has repeatedly called on Palestinian civilians to ignore Israel’s warnings about impending strikes and reportedly forced civilians to remain in the vicinity of military objectives, using them, like its hostages from Israel, as human shields.

Nobody here needs to be educated on the fuckery of Hamas. It amazes me that this narrative continues to play out. We are not the audience for this. Yes there are lots of ignorant people out there who have blanket anti-Israeli sentiments.

You said it yourself - Hamas is a terrorist organisation. They are not a government, they are not a recognised state by any global body. Whether you like it or not, Israel has responsibilities when it comes to the rules of engagement and they have ignored those rules a thousand times over in the last 3 months, resulting in catastrophic loss of innocent lives. What Hamas is doing is, in the sense of a legitimate government, irrelevant. Yes they’re just as responsible for those deaths but they are not held to the same account and nor should any terrorist organisation be.

Israel has to know better, and it’s acting like it doesn’t give a fuck. They can argue organising a mass exodus to move people out of harms way all they like. While the body counts being reported by independent, legitimate organisations continue to rack up, it doesn’t matter.

 

[COB]

We're in touch privately but I feel I should say it publicly too - I'm sorry to @RJN, the post I made was thoughtless and wasn't fair to you, and it also diminished your feelings.

 

[Shaib]

Nobody here needs to be educated on the fuckery of Hamas. It amazes me that this narrative continues to play out. We are not the audience for this. Yes there are lots of ignorant people out there who have blanket anti-Israeli sentiments.

You said it yourself - Hamas is a terrorist organisation. They are not a government, they are not a recognised state by any global body. Whether you like it or not, Israel has responsibilities when it comes to the rules of engagement and they have ignored those rules a thousand times over in the last 3 months, resulting in catastrophic loss of innocent lives. What Hamas is doing is, in the sense of a legitimate government, irrelevant. Yes they’re just as responsible for those deaths but they are not held to the same account and nor should any terrorist organisation be.

Israel has to know better, and it’s acting like it doesn’t give a fuck. They can argue organising a mass exodus to move people out of harms way all they like. While the body counts being reported by independent, legitimate organisations continue to rack up, it doesn’t matter.

It is unquestionable that many civilians in Gaza have died and even more have suffered.
Having said that, it's impossible to know the real number of “innocents” vs. terrorists that have died, given that the Ministry of Health in Gaza is under the control of and susceptible to influence by Hamas.
It also does not separate innocent civilians from fighters in its announced death tolls.

Frankly, I really don't think It's possible for any independent assessments of this ratio to be conducted at this stage.

 

[funky]

There are hundreds of doctors from around the world in Gaza that have no alignment to Hamas or Israel, they are not there politically they are there to save lives. They are feeling hopeless, bereft, unable to do their jobs, and many of them are dead.

 

[joanne]

 

[joanne]

You make an awful lot of quite disparaging assumptions in this post.

Let me just clarify some things for you on the more slanderous end:

I have no hatred towards Jews and I resent the implication.

I’m not pro-Palestine anything. I’m pro not innocent people being killed recklessly and needlessly.

I don’t hate Netanyahu’s government because they’re Jewish. It has nothing to do with religion to me whatsoever. You’re making it about religion. You’re preoccupied with the idea - that default setting is blinding you to the fact that maybe the Israeli government are actually doing some terrible things.

You seem to imply that the ‘West’ is made up entirely of ignorant non-Jewish people who just have a complete disregard for Jews and Judaism. Maybe we don’t feel the need to point out it out because we’re able to separate where you are not, but I am much closer to Jewish customs and culture that you could ever know. The industry I have predominantly worked in means I have had many, many Jewish colleagues and the most important person in my life outside of my immediate family is Jewish. Not that any of that matters, but just so you know while you’re calling me out for hating Jews.

i have not once accused you of anti-semitism, @Funky!

 

[funky]

Well I apologise then. It read like you were talking about people from moopy, but if you weren’t then okay.

 

[COB]

Gaza: MSF condemns strike on shelter that killed staff member’s five-year-old daughter | MSF

MSF condemns in the strongest possible terms the strike on an MSF shelter in Gaza which has led to the death of the five-year-old daughter of an MSF staff member.

www.msf.org

 

[Shaib]

 

[ZenGiraffe]

The Genocide case is now underway at The Hague:

Middle East crisis live: South Africa’s genocide case against Israel opens; claims ‘vast Hamas tunnel’ under Khan Younis

Israel has described the case as ‘preposterous’ and is set to defend itself; Israel says tunnel has ventilation systems, electrical supply and plumbing

www.theguardian.com

All of these acts individually and collectively form a calculated pattern of conduct by Israel indicating a genocidal intent. This intent is evident from Israel’s conduct in:

Targeting Palestinians living in Gaza using weaponry that causes large scale, homicidal destruction, as well as targeted sniping of civilians.

Designating safe zones for Palestinians to seek refuge and then bombing these.

Depriving Palestinians in Gaza of basic needs – food, water, health care, fuel, sanitation, and communications.

Destroying social infrastructure, homes, schools, mosques, churches, hospitals, and killing, seriously injuring, and leaving large numbers of children orphaned.

Genocides are never declared in advance but this court has the benefit of the past 13 weeks of evidence that shows incontrovertibly, a pattern of conduct and related intention that justifies a plausible claim of genocidal acts.