Kevin Spacey (in response to child sexual assault allegations): I’m a QUEEN!

ameraal said:
firstly, i differentiate between being hit on (be it by someone predatory or someone who genuinely thinks you're sending wrong signals) and being attacked or harrassed. i'm not even talking about spacey here who it seems there are too many similar stories on to be a coincidence.
Click to expand...



'i'm not putting blame on anyone who has been assaulted or attacked but'

I don't believe there IS a 'but'.


' being hit on by someone in a position of power who you expect something from should not come as a surprise. and you also have a responsibility to put some boundaries up'.

The responsibility is with the predator not to do it. Always.This just encourages the notion that somehow they brought this on themselves because it was their responsibility that it happened. It's victim blaming pure and simple.
 
Ryan said:
I'm not convinced it's even as clear cut as this. I agree that people in such positions do need to be careful and considerate about HOW they approach people but are we really now saying that you can't hit on someone lower down the career ladder than you at all?

There's a lot of subjectivity to this and it seems to me that the line between an advance and harassment is often about whether or not the attraction is reciprocated.
Click to expand...

sex is very much about power for many (if not all of us). i know it might be an inconvenience for the sake of this conversation but that's human nature and some people will always find their bosses/subordinates attractive. the question is how it is handled - is it respectful or does it cause the other person discomfort in any way. and because we often can't really gauge that, it seems easier to just call it "some form of harrassment".
 
lolly said:
'i'm not putting blame on anyone who has been assaulted or attacked but'

I don't believe there IS a 'but'.


' being hit on by someone in a position of power who you expect something from should not come as a surprise. and you also have a responsibility to put some boundaries up'.

The responsibility is with the predator not to do it. Always.This just encourages the notion that somehow they brought this on themselves because it was their responsibility that it happened. It's victim blaming pure and simple.
Click to expand...

well, let's agree to disagree then. the "victim is never to blame" is like "the customer is always right".
 
I think by definition they are quite different. I'm not saying there isn't nuance and that every case is the same, but broadly I very much agree with it.
 
ameraal said:
sex is very much about power for many (if not all of us). i know it might be an inconvenience for the sake of this conversation but that's human nature and some people will always find their bosses/subordinates attractive. the question is how it is handled - is it respectful or does it cause the other person discomfort in any way. and because we often can't really gauge that, it seems easier to just call it "some form of harrassment".
Click to expand...
I really do see where you're coming from. Sure NO ONE should be a predator, but that's sometimes the nature of the hunt, for want of a better phrase. There is always a power relationship, even between two people. I am not condoning such actions but there are blurred lines, particularly in power relationships: there are sexy ways to apply and receive power and abusive ways to apply power. If we just stopped all propositioning there'd be no more sex.
 
It's really difficult but I'm definitely with Ryan's fairly eloquent comments here.

If Spacey (or anyone) in this situation has been unlawful, misogynistic, sexually aggressive or harmful, then they can go figuratively hang. If they have been simply a bit leery, flirty or annoying, then that's not great but perspective is needed.

"victim blaming" is the worst phrase though. It immediately connotates that the 'victim' is always right and is utterly bulletproof from all criticism before an actual trial has taken place. That is just not a good way to work a society.
 
Indie said:
"victim blaming" is the worst phrase though. It immediately connotates that the 'victim' is always right and is utterly bulletproof from all criticism before an actual trial has taken place. That is just not a good way to work a society.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I do agree with this to an extent. I mean I think that in principle it holds and has merit where it can be examined - but not where it's used to shut down discourse. And invariably it is often thrown around like that.
 
OT: I see someone deleted the 'time to close Moopy' tag. I wonder if that's due to being CAUGHT OUT?
 
Well there's only me and you online that could do that, and I didn't do it. I don't remember seeing it.
 
Diddy said:
Indie might have deleted but was too drunk at the time! Soz xx!
Click to expand...
He's a living his life as a heterosexual man these days despite having had relationships with women, men, children and tags.
 
sidebar: i'm having lunch with a girl friend (my age, works in pr, isn't oblivious to popular culture or the gay scene for that matter) and she had never heard the rumours spacey was gay.

ditto travolta, cruise, smith. maybe it is just us.
 
ameraal said:
sidebar: i'm having lunch with a girl friend (my age, works in pr, isn't oblivious to popular culture or the gay scene for that matter) and she had never heard the rumours spacey was gay.

ditto travolta, cruise, smith. maybe it is just us.
Click to expand...
REALLY? No, it's not just you. All my pop culture loving friends knew it and none of us even work in the media or PR.
 
I've read that Spacey was practically out until American Beauty when he did an interview and said he was straight as he feared it might affect his future roles.

I don't think the Cruise and Smith rumors were ever substantiated beyond blind items.
 
ameraal said:
sidebar: i'm having lunch with a girl friend (my age, works in pr, isn't oblivious to popular culture or the gay scene for that matter) and she had never heard the rumours spacey was gay.

ditto travolta, cruise, smith. maybe it is just us.
Click to expand...
Smith?
 
I'm with Ryan and ameraal. The fault lines of victim and perpetrator, harassment and attraction, are not very clear at all. And though I think its super important that all of these people are speaking up about harassment and violence endemic in many of our industries and work environments, I can help but feel frightened and alarmed about where, as a culture, we are heading. A process that encourages victims to speak up and be heard and be taken seriously, also creates space for lies to be told, for lives to be ruined unfairly. It is also a wielding of power, which converts all 'perpetrators' to criminals, encouraging their vilification without nuance and question.

Our tendency of overstate harm in many situations, to simplify human interactions and render them abusive is something that concerns me, but to which, I don't have an idea of a solution:

In Conflict Is Not Abuse, Schulman identifies a growing social phenomenon whereby people overstate the harm they are enduring by calling “abuse” what really constitutes “normative conflict.” Abuse is “power over,” explains Schulman, while conflict is “power struggle.” Communities blindly support people when they make allegations of abuse, Schulman argues, and those falsely accused end up being shunned, criminalized, or otherwise harmed.

According to Schulman, people overstate harm to abdicate their responsibility in a situation—to strip the complexities of an interaction to a simple victim/abuser binary. “I recite these few words: ‘I was abused’ or ‘she was abusive’ or ‘it was an abusive relationship’ and it is immediately understood that I am right, and I am violated.” People should be relieved that nobody secured “power over” them—that instead, they participated in and contributed to the conflict at hand. But because abuse means recasting oneself as a kind of “ethical virgin,” laments Schulman, “sadly the relief is in confirming that one has been ‘victimized.’”
 
I've always considered harassment to be persistent. However, I think in the instance of Spacey it appears the fact the Rapp was 14 makes it inappropriate regardless of the semantics on this occasion.
 
big ron said:
I've always considered harassment to be persistent. However, I think in the instance of Spacey it appears the fact the Rapp was 14 makes it inappropriate regardless of the semantics on this occasion.
Click to expand...

Yes I'd agree on both the meaning of harassment and the age.
 
big ron said:
I've always considered harassment to be persistent. However, I think in the instance of Spacey it appears the fact the Rapp was 14 makes it inappropriate regardless of the semantics on this occasion.
Click to expand...

Oh, definitely. How this, as a conversation in our society, will develop, though, will be very interesting.
 
To be honest, I don't think it's 'victim blaming' to question why a 14 year old boy was at a drunken party with grown men. Where were his parents in all this? I had a paper round at that age, I wasn't going to the pub afterwards with the guy who ran the newsagent.

It doesn't excuse Spacey, but I agree that these things are often more nuanced than a black and white predator/victim dynamic.
 
I'd say questioning where the parents are is a different thing than victim blaming.
 
VoR said:
To be honest, I don't think it's 'victim blaming' to question why a 14 year old boy was at a drunken party with grown men. Where were his parents in all this? I had a paper round at that age, I wasn't going to the pub afterwards with the guy who ran the newsagent.

It doesn't excuse Spacey, but I agree that these things are often more nuanced than a black and white predator/victim dynamic.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but kids in the entertainment industry in the 80s were very much on their own. The number from that era that emancipated from their parents and got into drugs is ridiculous.
 
lolly said:
I'd say questioning where the parents are is a different thing than victim blaming.
Click to expand...

I see from the Buzzfeed article Rapp defends his mother by saying "It was a different time". If we don't buy that from Harvey Weinstein I'm not sure why we should buy it from a parent who let their child go to an adult party with total strangers and no supervision (or even with so much as a same-aged friend).
 
Last edited:
Inappropriate or uncomfortable touching, suggestions, comments and 'hits' were historically 'fine' when dished out to girls from the age of about 9 or 10 (cue some creepy uncle saying 'Oh wow, you're growing up really fast' as soon as you start to develop breasts) I'd like to see it stop, whether it's a girl or boy, teenager or younger, famous person in power or bloke who lives on the same street.

It's not a crime if there wasn't touching, it's just mega-icky and men should stop that shit right now.
 
I'm not absolving the parent of responsibilty. I just see it as a separate argument, albeit one that may have led to an incident.
 
This is probably not even the thread to have such a complex conversation - as we have to constantly clarify that the nuance we're trying to bring to the conversation isn't necessarily on the specific conversation of Kevin Spacey leching on a 14 year old kid.

That said, I, like many of you, am super interested in desire, power, attraction, and how we navigate these things in a time and space, where we are also trying to call out bad behaviour and respect the voices of people who have been on the receiving end of such behaviour.
 
I'm still trying to imagine Kevin Spacey not as a middle aged man. He's like Steve Martin in that he always looked OLD. Here's him in 1986:

a2b234589cf3cf4ffc2b104ba7b5ee48.jpg
 
You don't need a long analysis to understand that it was assault. He was 14 and he was touched in a sexual way that was not consensual while Spacey was 26 and should have known better (even in the 80's) and the fact that many people's first reaction is why didn't he resist or if he resisted hard enough so that Spacey could understand that his touching was unwanted is part of the problem that makes people like me not accept nuance.

We're not talking about two kids exploring their sexuality together. This is an adult and a minor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Beverley said:
That said, I, like many of you, am super interested in desire, power, attraction, and how we navigate these things in a time and space, where we are also trying to call out bad behaviour and respect the voices of people who have been on the receiving end of such behaviour.
Click to expand...

This is where the whole issue stems for me. The wider issue is that all of these accusations are stemming from people in positions of power abusing their influence in the pursuit of sexual gratification, and that people are allowing themselves to not only put themselves in situations that allow them to be exploited, but that they are willing to take the abuse as part of the process to further their own desire for success.

I got sexually harassed by a dreadful queen when I was 17 because I wanted a job in a nightclub so I had an excuse to goto said club against my parents wishes but after a couple of times telling him to cock off I decided it would be a lot easier to not have said job. #metoo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top Bottom