General Election 2019

[cwej]

But if you’re in an anything/Tory marginal, now is not the time for protest votes.

They're not protest votes. I'm saying under a FPTP system the ONLY time radical change will ever happen is in times where there is a hugely important change happening politically (Brexit probably the most important political landscape in 70 years in the UK). If people actually voted for what they believed in, then things WOULD change - they'd just all have to do it and they're more likely to at times like this because they have an actual reason to. The Lib Dems are standing for something very different to the Labour party at this election - whereas in the past, they've always just felt like a slightly more moderate version of the same thing.

 

[cwej]

I don't trust the Lib Dems. They (incl. Swinson) campaigned for years for a referendum to leave the EU, and then became the EU's biggest cheerleaders when there was a niche in the political market. I remember them courting young voters with their banner promise of scrapping tuition fees, and then doing the exact opposite. I don't trust them not to do the same with their current position if they have the opportunity to form a coalition with the Tories again, and as their current MPs include a number of former Labour MPs who left due to clashing with the direction of Labour, and a number of Conservatives who were unhappy to leave the Conservative party over Brexit, I think the likelihood of them forming a left-leaning coalition is pretty much zero...

You are absolutely mental if you think the Lib Dems would suddenly decide to support a Brexit to get into power... it has literally been their ONE POLICY the last 3 years, but even more so since Swinson took over.

I hear what you're saying about the past, but if we went against every party for every mistake they've ever made then we wouldn't vote for any of them. Labour set about starting an illegal war not too long ago lest we forget... I've never seen one party be held to account for one mistake more than the Lib Dems have over tuition fees. It's disproportionate to all the other mistakes other parties make.

 

[GNL]

If offered the choice between a second ref including Boris' shitty race-to-the-bottom deal and a second ref with socialist bogeyman Corbyn, I think they're much more likely to back Boris.

 

[GNL]

THAT SAID, whether the lib dem mps are shy Tories or not, anyone* is better than a proper majority for the ACTUAL TORIES!

*not you, Nigel.

 

[cwej]

THAT SAID, whether the lib dem mps are shy Tories or not, anyone* is better than a proper majority for the ACTUAL TORIES!

*not you, Nigel.

Something that all of us* can agree on at least.




*except apparently 2 of us don't. WTAF.

 

[Slave]

*except apparently 2 of us don't. WTAF.

I know you might not agree with it, and you might not understand it, but I really don’t like the fact that we are asking people how they are voting and then SHAMING them for their honesty.

By all means have a discussion, ask questions (which I presume is what @Ag was getting at earlier) but by no means should anyone voting Tory - or indeed any other party - be made to feel they’ve voted “wrong”.

Unless we are saying that Moopy is exclusively a pro-Remain, anti-Tory site. In which case that needs to be made VERY clear to all posters, rather than set traps for them to walk into before rounding on them. Like any community, we are likely to lean a certain way, but I really don’t like the tone that this is already taking.

Moopy is - or at least was, unless I’ve missed something - a place for discussion, debate and occasionally disagreement. Trying to incite a reaction or provoke a “holier than thou” stance on posters for their political persuasion is just not on.

 

[Lucille]

Who here isn’t a tax bracket away from voting Conservative!

As soon as I get my cheque, I’m leaving you all in the MUD!

 

[Shirley]

I'm really starting to dislike JO SWINSON

If she loses her seat (AGAIN) I will LAUGH LIKE A DRAIN

 

[big ron]

I know you might not agree with it, and you might not understand it, but I really don’t like the fact that we are asking people how they are voting and then SHAMING them for their honesty.

By all means have a discussion, ask questions (which I presume is what @Ag was getting at earlier) but by no means should anyone voting Tory - or indeed any other party - be made to feel they’ve voted “wrong”.

Unless we are saying that Moopy is exclusively a pro-Remain, anti-Tory site. In which case that needs to be made VERY clear to all posters, rather than set traps for them to walk into before rounding on them. Like any community, we are likely to lean a certain way, but I really don’t like the tone that this is already taking.

Moopy is - or at least was, unless I’ve missed something - a place for discussion, debate and occasionally disagreement. Trying to incite a reaction or provoke a “holier than thou” stance on posters for their political persuasion is just not on.

In the interest of transparency let me make it very clear I am strongly anti tory and I berate anyone who votes for murderous policies that marginalise the most vulnerable people in society. Quite frankly if you support that you deserve shaming.

 

[Cerro de Casa]

cwej - no need to get personal on those of us who have no time for the Lib Dems.

Some of us (myself included) voted for them in the past. Never again.

 

[Slave]

Quite frankly if you support that you deserve shaming.

And yet, a lot of people in this country DO support the Tories (and other parties that don't fit your view of the world). So, maybe places like this are an opportunity to find out more about what it is that appeals to those people about those parties. Or what it is in their manifestos that so resonates where yourself (and others) are immediately turned off.

I presume at the root of the urge to SHAME people is a desire to elicit a change in their behaviour. But I'm not aware of blanket-shaming as a reliable or tested way of provoking change in behaviour. If anything it does quite the opposite. I know your whole schtick is to be ANGRY, but you've got a long life to live (hopefully) and spending that time blaming and shaming feels like...well, almost the same behaviour that you so vehemently oppose.

 

[Mugatu]

I won't lie and say I was personally offended, it comes with the territory, but people have rounded on me for my political persuasion as much as any Tory, ex-Tory, Leave voter or whatever. I'm tedious, delusional, secretly conservative, a cultist. As an intellectual renegade, I expect the list to go on.

I didn't get people speaking up on my behalf to imply Moopy has an anti-socialist bias. I'm glad of it, because we're not a monolith and saying there is a political bias or shame culture which stops people from speaking out isn't true. You've got to be less fragile and more prepared to defend your ideas.

It's fair enough if you don't want to discuss what you think, I'm not one for piling on, but we all now how the site works by now. Luckily, I'm now a sensible, moderate Change UK supporter, so I can recognise the flaws in all sides.

 

[big ron]

And yet, a lot of people in this country DO support the Tories (and other parties that don't fit your view of the world). So, maybe places like this are an opportunity to find out more about what it is that appeals to those people about those parties. Or what it is in their manifestos that so resonates where yourself (and others) are immediately turned off.

I presume at the root of the urge to SHAME people is a desire to elicit a change in their behaviour. But I'm not aware of blanket-shaming as a reliable or tested way of provoking change in behaviour. If anything it does quite the opposite. I know your whole schtick is to be ANGRY, but you've got a long life to live (hopefully) and spending that time blaming and shaming feels like...well, almost the same behaviour that you so vehemently oppose.

Let me clarify my message - fuck tories.

 

[big ron]

I'm not interested in finding out what appeals to them and I've no interest in trying to change their world view. They can all fuck off. I'm not blaming them, shaming them, nor do I hold any particular anger towards them, in fact, I feel a mixture of bewilderment and pity for them, especially the ones that aren't millionaires.

 

[Beverley]

I can't with Slave.

 

[octophone]

As much as I understand tactics, I can't vote SNP. The line about turkeys voting for Xmas applies.

If I get a hint that the Tories might even have a vague chance of sneaking my seat, I'll review that. We have to get as many Tories out as is humanly possible.

 

[VoR]

I have no issue with robust debate (clearly) or with Moopy self-identifying as a primarily left wing, progressive website. Admitting you intend to vote Tory isn't going to get you banned from the site or anything. If you're going to take a political position, you have to own it. Make a case for why you're voting a certain way, rather than complain that you're being 'bullied'. If you genuinely feel the line has been crossed, take it to myself or one of the other Moderators and I guarantee we'll take it seriously.

THAT SAID, in the wider scheme of things, 'Vote X or you are a racist/xenophobe/idiot' did not exactly go gangbusters at the Referendum or the US Election in 2016. Once again we're in a position where the Right Wing have a clear, easily digestible (if shallow and disingenuous) message - Get Brexit Done - whereas the left are hopelessly confused, divided and relying on screaming "BUT WE'RE THE GOOD GUYS' to an increasingly exasperated general public.

 

[Diddy]

I’m with Slave, maybe I just shouldn’t read politics stuff on here at all.

but now I think about it, it’s not like the shaming going on here is restricted to politics anyway, just check a gay favourite classic song thread to see someone being scolded for giving something a 7 instead of an 11.

I guess Moopy was just the internet after all!

 

[VoR]

I’m with Slave, maybe I just shouldn’t read politics stuff on here at all.

but now I think about it, it’s not like the shaming going on here is restricted to politics anyway, just check a gay favourite classic song thread to see someone being scolded for giving something a 7 instead of an 11.

Do you think it's possible that you might be taking things just a little bit too seriously?

 

[lolly]

Is it safe to rate Robyn's 'Honey' album 6 yet?

 

[VoR]

Is it safe to rate Robyn's 'Honey' album 6 yet?

YOU STUPID CUNT

 

[Diddy]

Do you think it's possible that you might be taking things just a little bit too seriously?

it was more of an eyerolly post, I don’t think we need song-scoring reform if that’s what you mean. I mean this talk of shaming is just the other side of the gay hyperbole that happens for other topics, and no I don’t have a point

 

[Diddy]

Is it safe to rate Robyn's 'Honey' album 6 yet?

you first

 

[Shirley]

God that's so UTTERLY CUNTY of the TORY FRONT BENCH REFUSING to APPLAUD Bercow's tribute to KEN CLARKE

 

[big ron]

BANTZ

 

[Kala]

As much as I understand tactics, I can't vote SNP. The line about turkeys voting for Xmas applies.

If I get a hint that the Tories might even have a vague chance of sneaking my seat, I'll review that. We have to get as many Tories out as is humanly possible.

What do you mean by the turkey line? You’re entitled to your opinion. Just as much as I am to mine. I know the SNP aren’t perfect. Labour aren’t either, not by any means.

In every Scottish seat the Tories currently hold, the SNP are the second party. They’re likely to lose at least 8 of the 13 seats back to the SNP, and possibly 10.

We obviously have very differing political opinions. For me, I want independence for Scotland and to stay in the EU. This is a relatively new change for me since the EU referendum. And therefore SNP are my only option, other than the Scottish Greens but that’s a total waste of a vote.

 

[Kate]

I assume Octy is referring to their TERF problem!

 

[octophone]

The rules are thus: No TERFs, No SWERFs, No Tories. This pretty much leaves me with Labour. I'm not voting for a party who are unsure as to whether or not I should have legal rights and are trying to hide their terfism behind endless "consultations".

In my seat, the Tories usually poll a distant third so I'm not in a marginal. As I said, I will be keeping an eye on this - if there's any sense of a deepening Unionist vote, I will consider my position carefully.

 

[dmlaw]

I'm fairly sure that I'll be voting Labour, but my seat couldn't be much safer so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Kala]

The SNP issue is yes, unfortunate, but there are TERFs in every party, sadly. Labour included. Just as there are TERFs all around us. And a massive number of them.

Mhairi Black signed the open letter against TERFs, Nicola Sturgeon has openly supported trans rights, although she hasn't said anything publicly about the Joanna Cherry incident, though she did drop Ash Denham as an education minister recently after some comments she made back in 2007 surfaced. The problem is that when people like Joanna Cherry get death threats it just makes things worse as it gives them something to bat back at people. Unfortunately this situation is not going to go away.

It's the same reason I won't vote for Labour because of Antisemitism issues.

Anyway, the good thing is that the Tories have no chance of getting in anywhere in Glasgow. So that's something.

 

[Kate]

Just put Mhairi in charge of everything pls.

 

[Tetris-Rock]

Just put Mhairi in charge of everything pls.

She’s a future party leader without question.

 

[AGinAg (37)]

MORE VOTES PLEASE

 

[big ron]

Just put Mhairi in charge of everything pls.

Would vote for this

 

[big ron]

No TERFs, No SWERFs, No Tories

This is a great moto.

 

[octophone]

This is a great moto.

I was going to have it on a banner at one of Glasgow's MANY pride marches this year but my work decided to show up at the one I could go to so I thought, nah.

Still fancy it on stickers. Or a t-shirt.

 

[Tetris-Rock]

The SNP issue is yes, unfortunate, but there are TERFs in every party, sadly. Labour included. Just as there are TERFs all around us. And a massive number of them.

This is actually a misnomer. I've seen some good analysis demonstrating that the core online community of TERFS is actually pretty small but amplified by some loud and powerful voices (Gl*nner, for one) and lots of supposed "representative groups" which have a lot of overlap in support/membership (e.g. Women's Place UK, Transgender Trend, the new LGB Alliance etc etc etc).

With regards to no. 1 Nicky Morgan stan account Slave - you can't complain at people for not respecting your reasons for voting a certain way when you haven't actually shared what has driven you to vote Conservative.

And while I agree with VoR that public shaming is a highly ineffective tactic with regards to getting anyone to change their mind politically, I also care far too much about politics and society to respect the beliefs of anyone who would actually vote for the Conservative Party. They've always been bad but the current cabinet, including the Prime Minister himself, is laden with self-serving sociopaths.

To put it quite simply, they do not believe that everyone deserves a basic standard of living. They don't give a fuck about anyone but those with money - and people buy into it because they want to protect their own little slice of the pie.

They do not care, at all, about improving the state of public services because their ideology dictates that only the bare minimum if anything should be provided by the state and any claims that they do is window dressing. They have used an economic crisis, which took place under Labour but was essentially borne of the deregulated city boy fuckery that they endorse fully, to justify draconian cuts to the safety net that people with illness and disabilities need to survive. The United Nations has deemed the UK Government to be in violation of its human rights obligations, for fuck's sake. We are a very wealthy country in which ideology is preventing the basic needs of citizens being met.

It's hard to conceptualise how they get away with this, but of course they use their media connections to denigrate the opposition and to play on people's inherent prejudices and tendency, particularly when there isn't a lot to go around, to think of their own interests regardless of what it means for wider society. I can understand people voting Tory for largely self-interested reasons, and for that I guess I reserve my right to judge them. If someone votes Tory because they think they are making Britain a better place to be, I can only assume they are on shrooms.

Yes, I am somehow EVEN MORE of an insufferable preachy lesbain these days. I think living in London has made me even more left wing because I feel like I observe the effects of the Tories' particular brand of late stage disaster capitalism on a daily basis.

 

[cwej]

cwej - no need to get personal on those of us who have no time for the Lib Dems.

Some of us (myself included) voted for them in the past. Never again.

There's a lot of personal stuff levelled at people who support Lib Dems too. Water off a duck's back.

 

[cwej]

This is actually a misnomer. I've seen some good analysis demonstrating that the core online community of TERFS is actually pretty small but amplified by some loud and powerful voices (Gl*nner, for one) and lots of supposed "representative groups" which have a lot of overlap in support/membership (e.g. Women's Place UK, Transgender Trend, the new LGB Alliance etc etc etc).

With regards to no. 1 Nicky Morgan stan account Slave - you can't complain at people for not respecting your reasons for voting a certain way when you haven't actually shared what has driven you to vote Conservative.

And while I agree with VoR that public shaming is a highly ineffective tactic with regards to getting anyone to change their mind politically, I also care far too much about politics and society to respect the beliefs of anyone who would actually vote for the Conservative Party. They've always been bad but the current cabinet, including the Prime Minister himself, is laden with self-serving sociopaths.

To put it quite simply, they do not believe that everyone deserves a basic standard of living. They don't give a fuck about anyone but those with money - and people buy into it because they want to protect their own little slice of the pie.

They do not care, at all, about improving the state of public services because their ideology dictates that only the bare minimum if anything should be provided by the state and any claims that they do is window dressing. They have used an economic crisis, which took place under Labour but was essentially borne of the deregulated city boy fuckery that they endorse fully, to justify draconian cuts to the safety net that people with illness and disabilities need to survive. The United Nations has deemed the UK Government to be in violation of its human rights obligations, for fuck's sake. We are a very wealthy country in which ideology is preventing the basic needs of citizens being met.

It's hard to conceptualise how they get away with this, but of course they use their media connections to denigrate the opposition and to play on people's inherent prejudices and tendency, particularly when there isn't a lot to go around, to think of their own interests regardless of what it means for wider society. I can understand people voting Tory for largely self-interested reasons, and for that I guess I reserve my right to judge them. If someone votes Tory because they think they are making Britain a better place to be, I can only assume they are on shrooms.

Yes, I am somehow EVEN MORE of an insufferable preachy lesbain these days. I think living in London has made me even more left wing because I feel like I observe the effects of the Tories' particular brand of late stage disaster capitalism on a daily basis.

What a fucking post!!!!

 

[Kate]

<3!