General Election 2019 (2 Viewers)

[AGinAg (37)]

This has been my issue all along. I don't believe he's anti semitic but his absolute and consistent failure to address it in any meaningful way is not what I want from a Labour leader. It does make you wonder WHY he's consistently failed to act effectively? Are there more sinister characters pulling the strings?

 

[Jark]

Although his stubbornness is once again proving a roadblock in making Labour electable, I don't think this is a big issue for the electorate as a whole. Probably any Jewish support lost as a result of anti-semitism within Labour was already gone so at worst he's perhaps seen to it that he won't win those people back. But I don't think this is a particular "well now it's over" moment.

 

[AGinAg (37)]

I'm not Jewish but it's a very valid reminder to me of his failure to deal with basic problems. Any vote wavering I had going on has been restrained.

 

[VoR]

I absolutely think it’s going to be the defining issue of his term as Labour leader to be honest, in terms of his legacy and how this chapter of British politics is remembered.

I’m also not Jewish but it’s very difficult to keep believing there’s no fire behind the smoke when he’s so consistently shit at addressing it when presented with open opportunities to do so.

I thought his whole thing was that he was supposed to be different, a more honest and straight-talking politician? But all we get from him on this issue are the same defensive, disingenous soundbites. I don’t think you need to be Jewish to find the whole thing a bit, well, sinister...

 

[big ron]

Why are so many Jewish people coming out in support of him then? Why did 48 of the UKs Rabbis immediately sign a letter backing him?

 

[Rita]

I wonder how much press coverage the documents showing the NHS is for sale in a Tory Brexit deal with the US Jeremy Corbyn has revealed will get?

 

[VoR]

Why are so many Jewish people coming out in support of him then? Why did 48 of the UKs Rabbis immediately sign a letter backing him?

So do you actually think he’s handling this WELL?

 

[Indie]

So do you actually think he’s handling this WELL?

Not directly apologising is a pretty standard politician response. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's how every single politician would have handled the same question.

Boris Johnson did EXACTLY THE SAME THING by not apologising in the Question Time specials last week re: his comments on Muslim women etc; it got a passing mention on the BBC/press but did not get blown up to this proportion over the newspapers.

 

[big ron]

So do you actually think he’s handling this WELL?

Tell you what, I'm calling you out as an antisemite. Where's your fucking apology?

 

[big ron]

VoR to leave moopy NOW as he refuses to apologise.

 

[octophone]

If he apologised, the headline would be that he had admitted it all and it was all true and you can't trust Labour. It's all part of the smear.

You can bandy this about all you want but anyone who makes this their tipping point is voting for more austerity, more cuts, a far-right government with openly racist, transphobic and eugenicist policies and a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020.

So stop fucking handwringing.

 

[octophone]

No-one is suggesting that this isn't something Labour have failed to deal with over the years and this goes back decades with Labour. But this Hilary Clinton all over again "ooh, her e-mails, ooh she likes wars and stuff" and look at what we got. Hideous to see people falling for the distortion and not pausing to think of who is behind it all.

 

[Kala]

Nicola Sturgeon giving a very great speech at the launch of the SNP election manifesto. If she’s one thing at least she’s good at that.

 

[Jark]

Not directly apologising is a pretty standard politician response. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's how every single politician would have handled the same question.

It's actually not though.

Richard Burgon (shadow justice secretary) and Nia Griffith (shadow defence) have both explicitly said today that apologies are owed. So there is not a clear party line on this and it seems like Jeremy's inner circle are telling him not to apologise when probably he should. Clearly it's NOT the case at all that "every single politician" would've evaded the question.

 

[Jark]

It's all part of the smear.

fucking hell.

There are smears coming from the right all the time. They're outrageous. But not EVERYTHING is a smear. Nor everything is a distraction.

My own feelings on Corbyn are quite complicated. I like many of his values, dislike others (his Brexit stance in particular), think he's probably a good person, think he's not a great politician but also not the straight-talking "people's politician" his supporters often claim he is, I think his economic vision for the country is progressive and vital etc etc. I go back and forth a lot with him, but I will be voting Labour without doubt.

BUT it pisses me off that his most ardent supporters are always on this trip of "THE MEDIA IS DISTORTING EVERYTHING". Sometimes he FUCKS UP and as a supporter it's quite OK to admit that. The blinkered fangirling is slightly embarrassing.

Although I'm sure I've just been blindly eating up everything the BBC tell me, or whatever today's furious argument is.

 

[VoR]

Not directly apologising is a pretty standard politician response. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's how every single politician would have handled the same question.

Boris Johnson did EXACTLY THE SAME THING by not apologising in the Question Time specials last week re: his comments on Muslim women etc; it got a passing mention on the BBC/press but did not get blown up to this proportion over the newspapers.

What Jark said, plus I repeat - even if dodging apologies is the 'standard response' does that mean it was the right call in that moment?

Regardless of media bias or how overblown the issue may or may not be, he really needs to make it seem like he genuinely cares if even one Jewish person has faced abuse at the hands of his supporters. Instead, it comes across as if he simply finds the entire issue annoying.

 

[Jark]

at the end of the day I think the antisemitism row can be boiled down quite simply into this:

-there is a problem with antisemitism in certain corners of the Labour party - to what degree is debatable, but it's there
-Labour has a large Jewish voter base
-therefore it should draw a line under this as swiftly and resolutely as possible
-the easiest way to do this would be a straight-up apology from Corbyn with a pledge to do better.

so it's kind of classic Jez that he won't just do the one thing that would make his life easy and allow people to focus on the things he wants them to focus on. and no, this argument of "the press would make it a bigger deal if he apologised" does not hold weight. people are not all fucking idiots, at least not people who traditionally lean toward Labour - there would be a level of respect for dealing with the situation and moving forward.

 

[octophone]

That's fine. When we fall off an economic cliff, can't travel freely within Europe, can't do business without massive tariffs and the NHS is sold off, this becoming non-accessible to millions, I'm quite certain that "but Corbyn didn't deal with anti-semitism very well" will be a perfectly valid argument.

 

[octophone]

no, this argument of "the press would make it a bigger deal if he apologised" does not hold weight.

I never said they would make it a bigger deal - I said that the headlines would still be there, they would still be anti-Corbyn but from a different angle.

people are not all fucking idiots, at least not people who traditionally lean toward Labour

Not my experience, I'm afraid; the left has more than their fair share of fuckwits.

 

[Jark]

That's fine. When we fall off an economic cliff, can't travel freely within Europe, can't do business without massive tariffs and the NHS is sold off, this becoming non-accessible to millions, I'm quite certain that "but Corbyn didn't deal with anti-semitism very well" will be a perfectly valid argument.

Issues like this don't exist inside a bubble. Everything cross-pollinates. It's not that Brexit is the biggest issue so anti-semitism is not relevant. Must everything be defended? Can't we just call for them to do better?

 

[VoR]

That's fine. When we fall off an economic cliff, can't travel freely within Europe, can't do business without massive tariffs and the NHS is sold off, this becoming non-accessible to millions, I'm quite certain that "but Corbyn didn't deal with anti-semitism very well" will be a perfectly valid argument.

I don't see anybody disputing he's the better option for the country as a whole in this thread, but surely you can see how dangerous it is to take the position that he should be immune from criticism about anything because he's a better prospect than Johnson?

The vibe you're giving off is something that I think something that a lot of Jewish people are wrestling with right now - that their concerns simply aren't important in the grand scheme of things.

Nobody's disputing that there's a media bias, or that this is being hugely amplified by the media. But is IS an issue, and it merits discussion, and Corbyn's reaction to it merits scrutiny. Just because Johnson doesn't get the same amount of scrutiny doesn't get Corbyn off the hook. It just means he has to be that much better, more honest, more transparent, more thoughtful. And on this issue, he quite simply isn't.

 

[big ron]

VoR's lack of apology here is really telling.

 

[Kala]

And here lies the problem of the Labour Party. If its supporters are fighting with each other then what hope has the party got?

 

[Jark]

And here lies the problem of the Labour Party. If its supporters are fighting with each other then what hope has the party got?

Division can be found within all parties. If a party is "to the left" of course there will be many viewpoints within that space. As it should be. There should be room for socialists and those only slightly left-of-centre, and everything in between. It's more about the quality of the discourse - it needs to be higher within Labour because they're on the back foot, just as it needs to be in the Democratic party in the US.

 

[VoR]

VoR's lack of apology here is really telling.

Throughout my life and career I've done my best to be a champion for equality, fairness and a kinder form of Moopy politics. Like all people, I'm human and I don't always get it right. The reports of individuals receiving antisemitic abuse in my name are very disturbing and antithetical to everything I stand for. I apologise wholeheartedly to any Jewish person who may have been on the receiving end of any kind of abuse or ill-treatment from Eurovision forum members or activists. These incidents are being taken very seriously, and going forward I promise we will do better.

See, it's really not that hard

 

[big ron]

And there we have it people, VoR is a holocaust denier.

 

[jivafox]

Boris Johnson didn’t apologise for racist, homophobic, sexist comments that HE made. And then his polling went UP.

Can we blame Jezza for taking a new approach?

 

[big ron]

Boris Johnson didn’t apologise for racist, homophobic, sexist comments that HE made. And then his polling went UP.

Can we blame Jezza for taking a new approach?

Ha, well there is that

 

[big ron]

*You need to be a bit more racist Jeremy, people aren't voting for cardigan wearing beetroot growers*

 

[octophone]

The vibe you're giving off is something that I think something that a lot of Jewish people are wrestling with right now - that their concerns simply aren't important in the grand scheme of things.

There's a difference between "aren't that important" and "aren't the single most important thing above all else". The allegations of antisemitism within the Labour party and against Corbyn as an individual are not the single most important thing in this election. Argue that if you want.

The wider scheme of thing in this election is the most serious of my lifetime.

Whoever you vote for, there is something rotten within the organisation or some supporters who have views you don;t share or find abhorrent. We've talked elsewhere about the transphobia of the SNP and the SNP haven't dealt with it well but they have no transphobic policies. Equally Labour have no anti-semitic policies.

The Tories have a multitude of thoroughly discriminatory policies and are actively looking forward to imposing them.

Over to you.

 

[VoR]

Well, let's turn the question around. If Corbyn himself was dogged with accusations of transphobia and had been for years, and there was documented evidence of Trans people receiving abuse from Labour party members, and he consistently declined to apologise for this, would it give you pause before voting for him? If non-Trans allies of yours accused Trans people of being in league with the right-wing media to disproportionately amplify, if not outright fabricate, issues of abuse, would that be something you'd be happy to swallow for the greater good?

 

[Indie]

Well, let's turn the question around. If Corbyn himself was dogged with accusations of transphobia and had been for years, and there was documented evidence of Trans people receiving abuse from Labour party members, and he consistently declined to apologise for this, would it give you pause before voting for him? If non-Trans allies of yours accused Trans people of being in league with the right-wing media to disproportionately amplify, if not outright fabricate, issues of abuse, would that be something you'd be happy to swallow for the greater good?

But in that turnaround there are also plenty of trans people willing to stick up for him. And Corbyn would have demonstrated for trans rights in the 70s.

 

[Indie]

It's actually not though.

Richard Burgon (shadow justice secretary) and Nia Griffith (shadow defence) have both explicitly said today that apologies are owed. So there is not a clear party line on this and it seems like Jeremy's inner circle are telling him not to apologise when probably he should. Clearly it's NOT the case at all that "every single politician" would've evaded the question.

It's easier when you're not on top. As octophone rightly said, if he apologised then the press jumps on him equally. There is no win in this scenario for Corbyn.

 

[Tetris-Rock]

I know it's not quite the same but i'd vote for the SNP and independence if I was living in Scotland despite my feelings regarding how quite rampant and very open transphobia by some members of the party has been dealt with by the leadership.

As I think I said earlier in this thread, I think it's sensible to have a bit of nuance in your politics but unfortunately said nuance doesn't translate to the means provided to us by the ballot box. For that reason, I do think we need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to voting.

 

[octophone]

(Interrupted by work...)

Well, let's turn the question around. If Corbyn himself was dogged with accusations of transphobia and had been for years, and there was documented evidence of Trans people receiving abuse from Labour party members, and he consistently declined to apologise for this, would it give you pause before voting for him? If non-Trans allies of yours accused Trans people of being in league with the right-wing media to disproportionately amplify, if not outright fabricate, issues of abuse, would that be something you'd be happy to swallow for the greater good?

There's documented evidence of transgender people receiving abuse from members of ALL political parties. Also, multiple non-trans people continually silence our voices, put false or inflated stories into the mainstream media, consult biased sources and just plain make stuff up. So you're asking me imagine something that is actually happening.

Plus, it's not that easy to switch around. This is a historical problem Labour have had for a long time that is now being brought to the fore.

 

[Kala]

I know it's not quite the same but i'd vote for the SNP and independence if I was living in Scotland despite my feelings regarding how quite rampant and very open transphobia by some members of the party has been dealt with by the leadership.

As I think I said earlier in this thread, I think it's sensible to have a bit of nuance in your politics but unfortunately said nuance doesn't translate to the means provided to us by the ballot box. For that reason, I do think we need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to voting.

I agree with this. No party is perfect or ticks all the boxes, so you have to look at which one fits your ideas the best. I do not agree with everything that has happened in SNP, however, they are a damn sight better in most of the categories I find important than any other party.

 

[big ron]

 

[AGinAg (37)]

I want the Labour Party to feel at home in Jewish people.

 

[VoR]

August 2018. Why's it so hard for him to say it now then?

 

[octophone]

Fed up with it, I'd have thought.