Jeff Goldblum: 'Is there something in this religion that is anti-homosexuality and anti-woman?'

[K.C.]

So how DOES one "frame" the question appropriately then? When does it finally become legitimate to ask what Jeff asked? Was it really THAT farfetched a question?

 

[Generic Account]

I get RS's point in that we've never had Christian imagery on the main stage in a way that wasn't comedic or perhaps fashion related, whereas Jackie was making a clear statement.

However, on the other hand there have been a lot of queens on the show who have been Christian and have actively discussed their relationship with God, but never have they had someone say 'Can you be Christian if the Bible condemns gay people?'.

It was just phrased very clumsily. I think it's a good topic to bring up so long as the answer is handled thoughtfully by people who know what they're talking about, but it didn't feel right.

I don't think JG came off very badly for it though. We know how much editing goes into this so I'll take it at face value.

 

[K.C.]

I was just thinking about RuPaul's decision to even keep it in the episode.

 

[COB]

There have definitely been queens who've talked about the effects of Christian homophobia on the show (Dusty Ray Bottoms and her experience with conversion therapy comes to mind), but I can't think of anything like that on the main stage.

 

[Generic Account]

There have definitely been queens who've talked about the effects of Christian homophobia on the show (Dusty Ray Bottoms and her experience with conversion therapy comes to mind), but I can't think of anything like that on the main stage.

They have, but it was something they opened up about themselves and they never really got into how they can balance Christianity and homosexuality. Not that I remember anyway. And it lies in the questioning too I guess. I feel like we hear these questions (how can you condone a religion that is intolerant? How can you be Muslim when it condones violence? How can you forgive the treatment of women? etc etc) so often now in news outlets and online discussions and television and it does feel a bit like let's-probe-the-minority.

But then I'm quite ignorant about it too and might be talking rubbish. It just felt uncomfortable and Jackie was commendable in her reply.

 

[cwej]

I feel like we hear these questions (how can you condone a religion that is intolerant? How can you be Muslim when it condones violence? How can you forgive the treatment of women? etc etc) so often now in news outlets and online discussions and television and it does feel a bit like let's-probe-the-minority.

Maybe someone in the Muslim community needs to answer these questions then?

Christianity went through the microscope years ago and we now have female vicars and celebrate gay marriage in lots of Christian churches. Does this happen in mosques? (Genuine question - I don’t know the answer). If the answer is no, then it’s totally fair to put Islam under the microscope more than Christianity.

 

[cwej]

As for "the question", I did oop, but I didn't feel like it was mean-spirited either, and Jackie got to say her piece which is the most important point.

Let’s be honest, for all the hate Jeff has had in this thread, it’s more than likely that he was told to ask that question by the producers And Jackie was prepped that it was coming so she could say her piece.

 

[cwej]

The problem is that the framing and thinking behind those questions is lazy. It's as if only ignorant white people and their need to be educated matter and not the kids who are constantly having it reinforced to them that their religious background is different, is other.

it’s not at all that the education of ignorant white people matters more. It’s that if we have open dialogue about this then we can help the Muslim community to integrate more. By just getting defensive and refusing to find a way for homosexuality and Islam to work together in a peaceful and accepting way, we’ll never make things better for the Muslim community.

I teach in a school of 70% Muslim population and discussions in class about things like the Birmingham school protests last year invariably result in a bunch of our Muslim students (and sorry but it IS ALWAYS Muslim students, never Christian or atheists) defending the protestors and saying children shouldn’t be opened to the idea of homosexuality because it ‘turns them gay’.

obviously it is not all Muslim kids - and we do our darnedest to educate on acceptance and inclusion for all - but we need to be having more dialogue to ensure we make progress. And what other place than something like Ru Paul’s drag race to have that dialogue, especially when someone as articulate and positive as Jackie is in the conversation?

 

[Beverley]

I could write reams and reams about this stuff - oh hey, it's a chapter in my book. read it when it comes out. - but really I want to spend as little time on this as possible.

@cwej your post is deeply disturbing to me. You claim not to know much about Muslim communities, but then go on to parrot far-right language about Muslims needing to integrate more. 1. Muslim communities don't need saviours to help them integrate. 2. You're calling me defensive, though I've spent a decade addressing these very issues. What have you done to combat homophobia in your community?

Let me make it clear for everyone. The assumption that Islam has a unique or exclusive problem with homophobia and misogyny is racist. The continual singling out is racist. Goldblum's question is problematic because it resorts to those racist stereotypes. And it expects Jackie to carry the weight of the ENTIRE Middle East or the ENTIRE Muslim population despite the fact that she doesn't even identify as one! Almost any other question would have elicited the same response from Jackie, but instead we got something that suggested that there is something CORRECT about believing Islam has issues that are worth singling out and discussing on stage in a way that no other religion is. In the name of a 'teachable moment', that is the message we got from this show.

People always attach themselves to examples of Muslim intolerance to bolster their argument - the Birmingham protests are the latest one - as if the Church hasn't systematically attacked and inhibited progress on LGBT education in this country. And lest we forget, this show is filmed in America - and as it constantly regurgitates nationalist garbage like getting the girls to dress up in star spangled gowns, the Christian evangelicals are undoing LGBT and Women's rights. And yet it is Islam we must talk about!

 

[RS]

If Jackie had been an Orthodox Jew and worn some Hassidic outfit, and Goldblum wasn’t Jewish and asked something similar, would you have interpreted his question as racist?

 

[cwej]

Beverley you’ve just spent a long time making a very defensive post again. Rather than answer the question about Islam’s take on homosexuality you’ve gone to passing the buck to other religions. As I said, Christianity has for years been put under the microscope in terms of its blatant homophobia and no one (absolutely not one person in this thread) has claimed that Islam is the sole problem in religion. Not one person in here has been racist. Of course Christianity and Judaism have similar issues. But that’s like saying ‘let’s not question Myra Hindley, because Rose West killed kids too’. We should question all and not regard it as racist when someone asks that question.

In regards to your question about what I have done for the gay community: I spend a lot of my time educating children on how we need to have tolerance, respect and understanding of one another’s backgrounds, taking whole school leads in LGBT history month and assemblies etc (like I said, educating predominantly Muslim children, many of whom have been raised to believe that homosexuality is wrong - and also, like I said in my experience of thousands of children, it is almost without exception Muslim children who have been most vocal in their out and out HATRED (and I really do mean that word) of gay people). So yes, I DO actually spend a considerable amount of my time trying to ensure that these two minority groups have a better understanding of one another and with a lot of success - by having these conversations with them and not shying away from the questions. Whilst having these conversations I’ve never once been accused of being racist, Islamophobic or in any way rude to the Muslim community. I have a great deal of respect for the Muslim faith, but with two major reservations: the treatment of women and the treatment of gay people.

But apparently if I do stuff to help integrate and educate minority groups then I’m told ‘Muslims don’t need a saviour’. If I don’t do this stuff then I’m a far-right racist. Ok...

 

[Dark Carnival]

Christianity went through the microscope years ago and we now have female vicars and celebrate gay marriage in lots of Christian churches.

Several huge rallies against gay marriage gathering several hundreds of thousands of people in France were organized by the church in 2013. Homophobic acts skyrocketed that year, so let's not act like the church is tolerant, because it's not.

Christianity went through the microscope and that's a great thing that I wish would happen to Islam too, the thing is it happened naturally in places where the populations were predominantly Christian, so it was basically a self-criticism exercise. What's happening with Islam right now is that the criticism is mainly happening in places where muslims are already a minority/persecuted. Seeing what you perceive as your identity when you're in a minority under attack does nothing to help mentalities evolve, it's just counter-productive. Which explains, as an example, why I think forcing muslim women to take their hijab off in non muslim countries (when it's their choice to wear one) is wrong whereas I'm completely ecstatic about seeing Iranian women take off their hijab as an act of contestation.

 

[cwej]

Several huge rallies against gay marriage gathering several hundreds of thousands of people in France were organized by the church in 2013. Homophobic acts skyrocketed that year, so let's not act like the church is tolerant, because it's not.

Christianity went through the microscope and that's a great thing that I wish would happen to Islam too, the thing is it happened naturally in places where the populations were predominantly Christian, so it was basically a self-criticism exercise. What's happening with Islam right now is that the criticism is mainly happening in places where muslims are already a minority/persecuted. Seeing what you perceive as your identity when you're in a minority under attack does nothing to help mentalities evolve, it's just counter-productive. Which explains, as an example, why I think forcing muslim women to take their hijab off in non muslim countries (when it's their choice to wear one) is wrong whereas I'm completely ecstatic about seeing Iranian women take off their hijab as an act of contestation.

And this is how you make a post that is informative and non-defensive on the issue. Some really good points in there.

Problem is - and again, please correct me if I’m wrong - I’m not sure there are any predominantly Muslim countries making many strides in regards to homosexuality. Are we just supposed to wait until our generation has passed and we’re all dead? Or is it right to hold a mirror to this?

I’m really not trying to say Christianity is perfect and sorted at all and I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just aware of the strides they have made to improve - female vicars, gay marriage in many (not all) churches.

 

[Dark Carnival]

And this is how you make a post that is informative and non-defensive on the issue. Some really good points in there.

Problem is - and again, please correct me if I’m wrong - I’m not sure there are any predominantly Muslim countries making many strides in regards to homosexuality. Are we just supposed to wait until our generation has passed and we’re all dead? Or is it right to hold a mirror to this?

I’m really not trying to say Christianity is perfect and sorted at all and I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just aware of the strides they have made to improve - female vicars, gay marriage in many (not all) churches.

Apart from Lebanon maybe (and I still wouldn't call that STRIDES really), no, I'm afraid not. But now that I'm reading my post again, I don't even think it's an Islam vs. Christianity issue in regards to homosexuality really. I mean, take all the predominantly christian African countries, what progress has Christianity achieved there in terms of LBGT+ rights?

 

[RS]

While what you say is right, DC, I find the idea that criticisim of Islam has to start from within is really problematic. We live in a secularised world where all religions and philosophies has to be treated equally and be questioned and criticised when needed. It is clear that the internal debate in Islam is not happening in the near future.

The racism issue has (understandably) led to Islam being usually tiptoed around in the West. It shouldn’t have been this way. If we believe in the Enlightment then we should also preach it and apply it on everyone (not force it upon them though). By expecting a white homophobe to know better but not require the same from a Muslim because of his faith, we’re implicitly thinking that the latter is not mentally capable of being tolerant.

Also one thing that is always implied whenever Islam is discussed is that the non-Muslim who’s raising the subject is an (ignorant) white Christian. That Christianity somehow is the religion of the superior, white majority. Newsflash; most white westerners are secular, the majority of Christians in the world are non-white and are usually just as blindly religious as the Muslims and therefore equally offended when Christianity is discussed. None of that seems to matter when Christinaity is discussed and questioned and Christian symbols are being used in all kinds of ways in art/music etc.

 

[RS]

Anyway, happy Ramadan girls!

 

[Cerro de Casa]

Let's face it: can we not just accept that all three Abrahamic religions have deeply problematic concepts that may well be interpreted as racist, misogynistic and homophobic? On the one hand I feel I'm stating the obvious but on the other, I'm sure this will considered a shocking opinion for some.

The Abrahamic religions and the patriarchal traditions they have fostered for centuries have a lot to answer for in my opinion.

I have nothing against Muslims, Christians or Jews - let's make that very clear, but the fact that they choose to subscribe to those religions means that engaging in dialogue really early on, is important across all of them. I don't think singling one religion out (when they're all as rotten as each other, in my own very humble opinion) helps - hence the whole Jeff GoldBUM issue.

Or is that too much of an 'and I oop' type opinion in 2020?

 

[RS]

Well, I’d say both yes and no. And the ideal would be if all three religions were subjected to some thorough filtering and were watered down into one very light faith where you get to believe in one single higher power and treat others the way you expect to be treated. Shalom and goodbye

 

[straightorbroken]

In regards to your question about what I have done for the gay community:

I'm a teacher, I'm a leader, I'm a mentor

 

[K.C.]

I don't even think it's an Islam vs. Christianity issue in regards to homosexuality really

It never was about A vs B. It just becomes frustrating when a question is raised and the only answer you get is "Well they're doing it too!"

 

[Dark Carnival]

It never was about A vs B. It just becomes frustrating when a question is raised and the only answer you get is "Well they're doing it too!"

Yeah, because that’s what I said

 

[K.C.]

Yeah, because that’s what I said

I didn't say that's what you said. I just said that's the common response we get.

 

[Beverley]

I didn't say that's what you said. I just said that's the common response we get.

Neither me or DC made the comparison. It was brought up by other people, and quite rightfully so, because Christian homophobia and Muslim homophobia are not treated in the same way in the media; they don't even come from or arise in the same context.

Moreover, when Christianity is offered as an example of a religion that has gone through a process and come out the other side all progressive and tolerant, then bitches need some FACTS.

Finally, to me, it is WILD that you, as somebody with Middle Eastern heritage, who may so often be perceived as Muslim because of the colour of your skin, can't understand why we would want to resist stereotypical conversations about a faith or group of people.

 

[Cerro de Casa]

Well, I’d say both yes and no. And the ideal would be if all three religions were subjected to some thorough filtering and were watered down into one very light faith where you get to believe in one single higher power and treat others the way you expect to be treated. Shalom and goodbye

Which will never happen, because (in my opinionata, bien sur) the entire essence of all the 3 major Abrahamic religions comes down to 'divide and conquer' - which, of course, is the ultimate irony.

That being said, I'm sure that if these 3 religions did not exist then humans would have found something else to beat each other with, so I guess we're stuck with them and the way to address them is to reform and engage with them rather than antagonise them and inflame the situation further.

 

[Beverley]

If Jackie had been an Orthodox Jew and worn some Hassidic outfit, and Goldblum wasn’t Jewish and asked something similar, would you have interpreted his question as racist?

Firstly, why Orthodox Jew and not just Jewish? Because you associate the hijab with Islamic orthodoxy? I don't think it reflects the complexity of the relationship that Muslim women have with hijab. Secondly, if the question was framed in the same way, that behaved as if Judiasm is a uniquely homophobic and misogynistic faith, then yes, I would call that racist (because it is).

Anyway, I don't think that this is a fair comparison: you can't compare Orthodox Jewish attire to the hijab, and you can't compare the treatment of Judaism in the West to the treatment of Islam. They have totally different historical and modern day contexts.

 

[K.C.]

Neither me or DC made the comparison. It was brought up by other people, and quite rightfully so, because Christian homophobia and Muslim homophobia are not treated in the same way in the media; they don't even come from or arise in the same context.

I didn't say it was either of you. It was, in fact, VoR. The original inquiry was simply about Jeff's question. But as seen frequently, the discussion quickly shifts to "But Christianity...". The comparison is fine, but it's frustrating when it's constantly used as a way to dodge the real issue, which is Jeff's question.

Moreover, when Christianity is offered as an example of a religion that has gone through a process and come out the other side all progressive and tolerant, then bitches need some FACTS.

@cwej made some good points with female inclusion and the hundreds of denominations that condone gay marriage. Also, let's not forget that Christianity is constantly referenced and reinterpreted in pop culture. RPDR contestants do it ALL the time. The MET Gala is a really good example of this. There was practically no pushback against this by Christians and yet it's a blatant trivialization of the Christian faith. Rappers wearing blinged out crosses. Celebrities wearing halo/saint-like trends. The examples are endless. If Rihanna was to dress as a sexualized Imam with bejeweled tits, would the Muslim community be as open?

Let's not forget how Rihanna was slammed for posing nude outside a mosque. And yet Christina Aguilera has an orgy in a church and nobody looks twice.

My point is that most Christians have accepted that their faith is open to criticism and will continue to be scrutinized until it longer has an influence over political decisions and social norms. And there's STILL work to be done.
Islam, on the other hand, has only JUST begun this process and it shows because the vast majority of the Muslim community is completely uninterested in having a discussion about the middle ground between their faith and the values of the West. At this moment, the very notion that homosexuals are equals is bizarre to most global Muslims.

 

[K.C.]

Finally, to me, it is WILD that you, as somebody with Middle Eastern heritage, who may so often be perceived as Muslim because of the colour of your skin, can't understand why we would want to resist stereotypical conversations about a faith or group of people.

I understand it, but when they ask an ignorant af question I actually answer them instead of pouncing on them and making their stupidity and racism even worse.

 

[RS]

Firstly, why Orthodox Jew and not just Jewish? Because you associate the hijab with Islamic orthodoxy? I don't think it reflects the complexity of the relationship that Muslim women have with hijab. Secondly, if the question was framed in the same way, that behaved as if Judiasm is a uniquely homophobic and misogynistic faith, then yes, I would call that racist (because it is).

Anyway, I don't think that this is a fair comparison: you can't compare Orthodox Jewish attire to the hijab, and you can't compare the treatment of Judaism in the West to the treatment of Islam. They have totally different historical and modern day contexts.

Firstly, because a non-traditional/non-religious Jewess has no unique outfit/attire that I could think of; therefore the Orthodox example.

I don’t see why it’s unfair to compare the two other than one being a personal issue for you and the other is an inconvenient factor in your theory.

 

[Beverley]

Firstly, because a non-traditional/non-religious Jewess has no unique outfit/attire that I could think of; therefore the Orthodox example.

I don’t see why it’s unfair to compare the two other than one being a personal issue for you and the other is an inconvenient factor in your theory.

And yet, despite my reservations with the comparison, I actually answered the question, you stupid fuck. Thereby disproving your insinuation that I expect special treatment for Islam.

 

[Diddy]

And yet Christina Aguilera has an orgy in a church and nobody looks twice.

.

I didn’t want to look ONCE! NOF!

 

[cwej]

You haven't answered any of my questions though, so I just assume that I'm not going to be engaged with on it. Which is the point that we're all making. Apparently there's no appropriate way to ask when or where we should have the conversation about Islam vs homosexuality.

When we talk about Islam on its own you take offence that we don't talk about Christianity and Judaism. When we compare it to Judaism you take offence saying they're different contexts.

I think you're right in the latter case personally. They are all different contexts. Which is why they all need to be questioned separately.

 

[Beverley]

Maybe I've spent the day fasting with a roaring migraine, so don't have the mental energy to write a long post right now?

 

[Beverley]

I didn't say it was either of you. It was, in fact, VoR. The original inquiry was simply about Jeff's question. But as seen frequently, the discussion quickly shifts to "But Christianity...". The comparison is fine, but it's frustrating when it's constantly used as a way to dodge the real issue, which is Jeff's question.



@cwej made some good points with female inclusion and the hundreds of denominations that condone gay marriage. Also, let's not forget that Christianity is constantly referenced and reinterpreted in pop culture. RPDR contestants do it ALL the time. The MET Gala is a really good example of this. There was practically no pushback against this by Christians and yet it's a blatant trivialization of the Christian faith. Rappers wearing blinged out crosses. Celebrities wearing halo/saint-like trends. The examples are endless. If Rihanna was to dress as a sexualized Imam with bejeweled tits, would the Muslim community be as open?

Let's not forget how Rihanna was slammed for posing nude outside a mosque. And yet Christina Aguilera has an orgy in a church and nobody looks twice.

My point is that most Christians have accepted that their faith is open to criticism and will continue to be scrutinized until it longer has an influence over political decisions and social norms. And there's STILL work to be done.
Islam, on the other hand, has only JUST begun this process and it shows because the vast majority of the Muslim community is completely uninterested in having a discussion about the middle ground between their faith and the values of the West. At this moment, the very notion that homosexuals are equals is bizarre to most global Muslims.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think it's really naive. If Christianity has been put under the microscope, it has been by its own followers, or by people who at least have a heritage and connection to the faith. Madonna scrutinised the Catholic church because she was raised within in it. Of course Christianity, as the majority faith in the West, is going scrutinised to be here. But what I hear from you is that, since those with Christian heritage were able to criticise their own faith, they should now be free to criticise Islam. Which doesn't make sense to me. Why do you want to? This right, this power you want to conserve for yourself, what it is about? Because it certainly doesn't have any benefit at its heart. It's about YOU guys. You guys being able to do what you want to do without restrictions.

Let me also point out to you that Islam doesn't have an iconography like Christianity does. An imam does not dress a certain way, because we don't have the same kind of pomp and ceremony that churches do, because imams don't function as intermediaries with God, like the clergy do. I think these differences are important in understanding the ways in which different religions can have their iconography subverted. And yet, STILL, I would say that I have dressed in ways that are particular to my culture, at Pride parades and religious events, to do the exact thing that you're claiming we don't do.

And finally, when you assert that Islam is not criticised, you presume an understanding of what is happening in Muslim countries and societies, which you simply don't have. So I would say to you that Islamic interpretations, Muslim leadership, even images from Muslim cultures are utilised and critiqued by all sorts of people. I've seen drag on prime time television in Pakistan, a drag queen who even interviewed the President. I've seen healthy and robust debate within Islamic communities. I think that at some point you have to understand your limitations as an outsider to a community - that you might not have all the facts to hand. But the insistence on claiming that 'Islam is this way' and 'Islam doesn't allow that' means that all you're doing is parroting basic talking points by the Islamophobic media.

 

[Beverley]

Beverley you’ve just spent a long time making a very defensive post again. Rather than answer the question about Islam’s take on homosexuality you’ve gone to passing the buck to other religions. As I said, Christianity has for years been put under the microscope in terms of its blatant homophobia and no one (absolutely not one person in this thread) has claimed that Islam is the sole problem in religion. Not one person in here has been racist. Of course Christianity and Judaism have similar issues. But that’s like saying ‘let’s not question Myra Hindley, because Rose West killed kids too’. We should question all and not regard it as racist when someone asks that question.

In regards to your question about what I have done for the gay community: I spend a lot of my time educating children on how we need to have tolerance, respect and understanding of one another’s backgrounds, taking whole school leads in LGBT history month and assemblies etc (like I said, educating predominantly Muslim children, many of whom have been raised to believe that homosexuality is wrong - and also, like I said in my experience of thousands of children, it is almost without exception Muslim children who have been most vocal in their out and out HATRED (and I really do mean that word) of gay people). So yes, I DO actually spend a considerable amount of my time trying to ensure that these two minority groups have a better understanding of one another and with a lot of success - by having these conversations with them and not shying away from the questions. Whilst having these conversations I’ve never once been accused of being racist, Islamophobic or in any way rude to the Muslim community. I have a great deal of respect for the Muslim faith, but with two major reservations: the treatment of women and the treatment of gay people.

But apparently if I do stuff to help integrate and educate minority groups then I’m told ‘Muslims don’t need a saviour’. If I don’t do this stuff then I’m a far-right racist. Ok...

To reject the terms on which you insist on having this conversation does not make me defensive. To see things differently to you does not make me defensive. To reject comparisons with Orthodox Judaism does not make me offended. Please move away from these basic categorisations. Please stop portraying yourself as a martyr, as you do at the end. I am trying to open up this conversation only because I see it as far more complex and delicate than you do.

You specifically said that Christianity had gone under the microscope and that criticism resulted in gay priests and gay marriage. I reject the idea that Christianity has undergone a process and come out the other side. I don't doubt the existence of very real homophobia within Muslim communities. But by broadening the terms of this debate, I explain to you that no religion has overcome its fight with homophobia. You use gay priests as a win, but Islam doesn't have religious institutions, so how do we replicate the process? We can't. And yet we still have gay imams, obviously we do, some of them declare their sexuality openly. Similarly, you use gay marriage as a win, but you can't actually have a gay marriage in a church in Britain. My friend, whose partner is a priest in a VERY inclusive church was FORCED to have a civil ceremony because of the belief that marriage is for heterosexuals. And yet, by contrast, marriage isn't a religious institution at all in Islam. We don't get married in mosques. Marriage is a social contract, which ANY people can put together providing we have the witnesses. So don't impose your cultural baggage onto us. Don't assume that the movements within any two faiths shall be the same.

Whatever example you find, I can contextualise them in terms of the broader challenges that religions have to embrace modernity. You want to talk women's rights, you want to talk integration, whatever. Islam is no different to any religion in any of this. If anything, we have a much tougher job, not because Islam is more difficult, but because our situations are difficult: our societies are young, post-colonial countries with so much shit to figure out. Or our communities in the West are, on the whole, incredibly vulnerable. So what I am rejecting time and time again, is the need to isolate Islam. You argue that without such isolation the conversations around Islam don't take place, but why do you presume this? And why do you presume that those conversations must involve and benefit you primarily? The LGBT Muslim organisation that I was involved in is now 20 years old, it has been engaging in those conversations for that long. In my own work, I have engaged Muslim leaders, organisations, communities on the topic of sexuality. So it is outrageous to behave that Islam is static and that you must be the one to shake it up.

That doesn't mean that Islam doesn't have issues. But the terms on which we discuss Islam is incredibly important. Consider the power dynamics in all this. Islam has been denigrated by the West for about 1000 years. Every stereotype that is levelled at us comes from those times. We are still living under the war on terror, in a climate of rabid Islamophobia endorsed by the state and its machinery. Every time Muslims see their faith or their communities referenced, it is negatively. Do you really think that your criticisms are going to encourage Muslim communities to do their work? Or are they going to sound like yet another person telling us that we are uniquely defective and need to pull our pants up.

That's precisely why I find it galling that you talk in terms of helping Muslims to integrate into our societies - let alone the fact that all indices suggest that Muslims are WELL integrated across Europe and where they are not, they are inhibited by institutional racism. Maybe what you could do to help Muslims is to examine yourself, your assumptions and to educate yourself on Islam. If you want to confront homophobia in Muslim kids, maybe you can point them to the queer friendly interpretations, or the fact that the Quran is, on the whole, a book of justice (if you aren't already). I appreciate the work you do as a teacher and what attitudes you might encounter, but I am also grossed out by the fact that you would use Muslim kids as an example to make broader points about Muslim homophobia. You said 70% of your kids are Muslim, so of course the majority of homophobic kids would share that background. Treating that as a radical stat is unbecoming even of you! Let me just say this: when I was bullied by kids at school, it wasn't just the Muslim ones - it was by every single one. And if I was a parent and I had any inkling of what you've said here (you might respect Islam, but isn't that the well-meaning liberal dilemma, to respect something but ultimately believe it's problematic and inferior?!) I wouldn't want you to teach my kids. But let's also be clear: the kids that would have benefited from Goldblum's conversation most as the queer muslim ones, not the homophobes, and unfortunately, what the show reinforced was the conflict between religion and sexuality.

Some smaller points:
- well over half of the countries that have homophobic laws in place were former British colonies. it helps to know that homophobia in those countries is as much our legacy as it is theirs
- Birmingham, the protests were terrible, but there is an under discussed problem of how the state promotes LGBT rights under its Prevent/anti-extremist agenda in schools

I'm sure you'll have a massive response, but I want to let you know that I'm probably not going to reply. I am not responsible for anybody's racism education. Plus, I have spent more than a decade speaking about Islam on this forum and whilst willingly taking the role of explainer, the fact that i'm still doing it (on exactly the same terms), in a place where i respect most people, is quite dispiriting. I'm tired of the endless explaining and microaggressions. I won't do it anymore. If you want materials, however, I would be happy to do that via PM.

 

[Suomi]

What an informative post I had to read it THRICE just to take it all in