The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions (2 Viewers)

You don’t even have to get into the history and politics of Zionist justification. All of that plays second fiddle to the genocide happening. Calling out the genicide is not anti-Semitic, it’s basic human decency and being on the right side of history. The anti-Semite argument is a well-rehearsed ploy to distract from what’s happening, and also undermines actual anti-semitism, so those people are part of their own problem.
 
funky said:
You don’t even have to get into the history and politics of Zionist justification. All of that plays second fiddle to the genocide happening. Calling out the genicide is not anti-Semitic, it’s basic human decency and being on the right side of history. The anti-Semite argument is a well-rehearsed ploy to distract from what’s happening, and also undermines actual anti-semitism, so those people are part of their own problem.
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Well yes, of course. But there is a point when a line is blurred and people downplay the history of persecution of Jewish people in their outrage.

The Israeli state and other governments are doing horrible things and there is plenty to protest and be angry about, but as is the case in anything like this, nuance is important. And there is plenty to criticise about Zionism, but it is complex and there are reasons for it historically beyond land grabbing and a need for power.

Yet it frustrates me that I can't raise this because people will accuse me of not being sympathetic to the plight of Palestine.
 
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To @Roe-st Potato 🥔 🌳’s point, we have had a poster of Jewish heritage leave the forum in the last week, on the basis that they no longer consider it to be a safe space for them.

I don’t say that to point fingers or attempt to shut down the discussion, I’m quite conflicted on the whole thing myself. But it’s something perhaps to think about.
 
It doesn't help that most audiences view the conflict in a vacuum. Netanyahu's assault on Gaza is only a micro-conflict compared to the much greater and a much older one it's a part of. With millennia worth of unchecked systemic antisemitism behind them; when the Holocaust is still within living memory; and when world powers are still yelling "Death to Israel" to this day, of course some Jewish people are going to view criticisms of Netanyahu's response, in isolation, as ludicrous or offensive. From their perspective, 2025 audiences living in privileged nations, who have never had to live with that fear or pressure, and exercising moral judgement over them, is probably going to sound infuriating and inavlidating to their suffering. To them, everything in the last 2 years is one measly win in a long string of devastating losses. This is the impression from what I've read and from what I've heard from some of my Jewish friends. In short, it's all perspective.
 
Well it’s a shame that they can’t separate their Jewish heritage from the Israeli government but I suppose everyone has their own way of dealing with a complex situation. Some of the most important people in my life are Jewish, like people I would lay in traffic for. But that doesn’t mean that I have to like the Israeli government, the IDF or that sack of shit murderous lunatic Netenyahu - they’re two completely different things.

Calling out the shitty horrible DISGUSTING Israeli government for their behavior is not as bad as condoning Bob Vylan for their shitty attempt at protest, but I suppose everyone has their own way of viewing these things.
 
funky said:
it’s a shame that they can’t separate their Jewish heritage from the Israeli government
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I really, really hope that this is a poor choice of words which you would like to withdraw because otherwise it is fucking appalling. If a Jewish poster feels that the forum’s support for Palestine has made them feel unsafe here then that is on us and something which we should be deeply ashamed of.
 
dmlaw said:
I really, really hope that this is a poor choice of words which you would like to withdraw because otherwise it is fucking appalling. If a Jewish poster feels that the forum’s support for Palestine has made them feel unsafe here then that is on us and something which we should be deeply ashamed of.
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Explain to me why it’s appalling, I’m happy to learn from it.
 
I can’t speak for the poster in question or anyone else, but I would imagine ‘our support for Palestine makes a Jewish poster uncomfortable’ probably isn’t the most helpful way to frame this.

I think there’s a more nuanced point here about the language we use when we express our points of view, and what their implications might be to somebody with a different lived experience to our own.
 
Well it's also because of the ideological homogeneity on Moopy. For better or for worse, the vast majority of the members here (or at least the openly vocal ones) all have very similar political inclinations and share very similar opinions on this conflict. In that sense, it's very understandable why they might feel uncomfortable - they may have felt singled out. Perhaps if it was more even, that member may have felt more at ease and stayed.
 
Nobody in the last few posts is making any sense. what’s ideological homogeneity got to do with calling out the slow erasure of an entire country?

It’s the LACK of nuance in this thread that is making it feel less like moopy and more like Twitter. You can support Jewish people while supporting Palestine, You can support Jewish people while calling out Israel.
 
funky said:
Explain to me why it’s appalling, I’m happy to learn from it.
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It implies that the only reason a Jewish person could object to extremely strident criticism of Israel is because their own Jewish identity is tied to the Israeli state. This is, at least occasionally, criticism that takes insufficient care to actually associate itself with the current Israeli government or their military leaders, rather than Israel or Judaism in general.

As an illustration, I appreciate that there is a way to argue that the whole ‘from the river to the sea’ thing is not anti-Semitic but that plenty of Jewish people who whole-heartedly disagree with the treatment of the Palestinian people nevertheless find it threatening. If someone chooses to use that chant anyway, I would consider that they flat out don’t care about offending Jews who would be on their side. For me, criticising a Jewish person who is offended by fairly scattershot abuse of Israel is uncomfortably close to victim blaming. If there’s going to be an actual solution to the whole Palestine thing, then offending moderate Jews is the exact opposite of the way to find it.
 
KC 🦋 said:
Well it's also because of the ideological homogeneity on Moopy. For better or for worse, the vast majority of the members here (or at least the openly vocal ones) all have very similar political inclinations and share very similar opinions on this conflict. In that sense, it's very understandable why they might feel uncomfortable - they may have felt singled out. Perhaps if it was more even, that member may have felt more at ease and stayed.
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welcome to online spaces. they tend to be homogeneous. popjustice is the same (and more heavily enforced than on moopy), the reddit threads I check sometimes are very much the same - there's a predominant viewpoint and not a lot of space or appetite for people of diametrically opposed views to come together and break bread. I don't mean to diminish the member's feelings, I don't even know who they are or what was said, but moopy is not some utopian ideal where all can paddle safely in shared waters.
 
Jark said:
welcome to online spaces. they tend to be homogeneous. popjustice is the same (and more heavily enforced than on moopy), the reddit threads I check sometimes are very much the same - there's a predominant viewpoint and not a lot of space or appetite for people of diametrically opposed views to come together and break bread. I don't mean to diminish the member's feelings, I don't even know who they are or what was said, but moopy is not some utopian ideal where all can paddle safely in shared waters.
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I agree. And I don't think anybody here should feel like they have to dilute their opinion or censor their feelings to create the illusion of 'fairness'. And honestly? I think things will only get worse on the internet.
 
dmlaw said:
It implies that the only reason a Jewish person could object to extremely strident criticism of Israel is because their own Jewish identity is tied to the Israeli state. This is, at least occasionally, criticism that takes insufficient care to actually associate itself with the current Israeli government or their military leaders, rather than Israel or Judaism in general.

As an illustration, I appreciate that there is a way to argue that the whole ‘from the river to the sea’ thing is not anti-Semitic but that plenty of Jewish people who whole-heartedly disagree with the treatment of the Palestinian people nevertheless find it threatening. If someone chooses to use that chant anyway, I would consider that they flat out don’t care about offending Jews who would be on their side. For me, criticising a Jewish person who is offended by fairly scattershot abuse of Israel is uncomfortably close to victim blaming. If there’s going to be an actual solution to the whole Palestine thing, then offending moderate Jews is the exact opposite of the way to find it.
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Nothing in this tells me what’s appalling about what I said. And also my supposed implication is the OPPOSITE of what I was saying.

Your illustration doesn’t make any sense either because it’s a million miles away from what I’m talking about. That line IS anti-Semitic. I’ve never once said it, used it or agree with it because it deals in absolutes. Absolutes are what causes anti-semitism, Zionism and all of the irrational hatred tied to this subject. This is part of the problem with having to have this argument.

So I’m no clearer to understanding why what I said was appalling - does anyone else want to have a go?
 
funky said:
Nothing in this tells me what’s appalling about what I said. And also my supposed implication is the OPPOSITE of what I was saying.

Your illustration doesn’t make any sense either because it’s a million miles away from what I’m talking about. That line IS anti-Semitic. I’ve never once said it, used it or agree with it because it deals in absolutes. Absolutes are what causes anti-semitism, Zionism and all of the irrational hatred tied to this subject. This is part of the problem with having to have this argument.

So I’m no clearer to understanding why what I said was appalling - does anyone else want to have a go?
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Someone is upset enough by something posted to have decided to leave and you appeared to be saying that this is their fault, not our fault for failing to create a safe space. It seems that you may not have actually meant to say that, but I still feel that it is the most obvious reading of your post.
 
dmlaw said:
Someone is upset enough by something posted to have decided to leave and you appeared to be saying that this is their fault, not our fault for failing to create a safe space. It seems that you may not have actually meant to say that, but I still feel that it is the most obvious reading of your post.
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Maybe you want to turn your attention to whatever it was that caused them to leave rather than me questioning their decision?

And no I never said it was their fault. You’re acting like you’re frustrated that someone left moopy and so you’re taking it out on the person who commented on it, not the person who caused it. Where’s your thoughts on them being appalling?

Unless I caused them to leave. Let’s have THAT conversation! Because right now you’re just as insulting to me as you feel that I am insulting to them.
 
Yeah, I think I’ve remembered why I’ve spent 21 months mostly not commenting on this whole area.
 
So instead you waited 21 months to shit all over me for saying it was disappointing that someone left moopy, even though I never caused them to leave.

Ok got it!
 
@funky you seem like you're taking this all quite personally. you can be quite heated on certain political topics, maybe just take a step back here.
 
funky said:
Nobody in the last few posts is making any sense. what’s ideological homogeneity got to do with calling out the slow erasure of an entire country?

It’s the LACK of nuance in this thread that is making it feel less like moopy and more like Twitter. You can support Jewish people while supporting Palestine, You can support Jewish people while calling out Israel.
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I think people can be pro-Palestine and not anti-semitic. But I also think people can be pro-Palestine and miss the nuances in terms of complicated issues like the reasons why Jewish people felt they needed a Jewish state in the first place. Hence my earlier posts. And people can fall into rabbit holes which lead them to content that is anti-semitic, like implying any desire for Jewish autonomy and protection is based on power and influence.

Which doesn't change the genocide that is happening in Palestine, no. But when people want to sound like authorities on issues but aren't actually looking deeply enough into the subject, that's a problem, because it just leads to more othering.
 
Also, I should say that I haven't been aware of anti-semitism on this forum, but I also am not Jewish.

And I think most on here can distinguish between Israeli policy and actions and Jewish people more widely; there are a couple of trolls yes, but they're the exception. If someone felt uncomfortable as a person of Jewish heritage, it isn't up to me or anyone else to tell them otherwise.
 
Jark said:
@funky you seem like you're taking this all quite personally. you can be quite heated on certain political topics, maybe just take a step back here.
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I’m really not! Im currently playing Lego Jurassic park and sipping on an ice lolly. I’m absolutely fine, but if I’m going to be called appalling I’m going to find out why. We should be allowed to have honest conversations with each other, especially if we’re going to start throwing insults.
 
Roe-st Potato 🥔 🌳 said:
Also, I should say that I haven't been aware of anti-semitism on this forum, but I also am not Jewish.

And I think most on here can distinguish between Israeli policy and actions and Jewish people more widely; there are a couple of trolls yes, but they're the exception. If someone felt uncomfortable as a person of Jewish heritage, it isn't up to me or anyone else to tell them otherwise.
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You’re absolutely right, but we said all of this 50 pages ago. That’s not a dig at you, it’s me highlighting moopy’s merry go round on this subject.
 
Well I just found out who left. That’s a fucking shame, I liked them a lot.
 
If the name is out there, can we all be told please? Unless they have specifically asked for it not to be disclosed, in which case I respect the request.
 
So we're never gonna get confirmation on who left or any further details? So business and ignorance as usual then.
 
Roe-st Potato 🥔 🌳 said:
Why do you feel that you're entitled to know?
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No, we're not owed anything. But this has happened before. Someone leaves because they feel uncomfortable/unsafe, everybody mourns, and then it's carry on as usual as if nothing has happened. It seems that people are perfectly happy with this being the status quo. Nuance is met with ignorance and diverging voices are met with hostility. And sometimes onlookers even fan the fire. We could learn something from this last person who just left. Especially if it truly was RJN. He was a great member. I hope it wasn't him.
 
KC 🦋 said:
No, we're not owed anything. But this has happened before. Someone leaves because they feel uncomfortable/unsafe, everybody mourns, and then it's carry on as usual as if nothing has happened. It seems that people are perfectly happy with this being the status quo. Nuance is met with ignorance and diverging voices are met with hostility. And sometimes onlookers even fan the fire. We could learn something from this last person who just left. Especially if it truly was RJN. He was a great member. I hope it wasn't him.
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You know someone has left because they didn't feel comfortable. It's up to them if they want it to be announced.

And your post did make it sound entitled, however you want to dress it up.
 
I asked personally as the information had clearly already transferred from admin/mods to some posters, and then inevitably it will become something akin to gossip or rumour, which I think serves the poster less well.

Like I said though, if they didn’t want it shared, then absolutely fair enough.
 
I would presume it's Kratz. RJN's presence has been waining for ages now.

Whoever it is, I'm sad they felt they had to leave. I know in MY heart I don’t feel an inch of resentment or anger towards those of Jewish heritage or faith, but I will continue to vocally criticise the genocide currently being performed on behalf of the Israeli government and the current repression of the right to say it. I always assume everyone here feels the same, but I've been naive before.
 
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