The UK: The Keir Starmer years - RESIGNED

of course there will be many surges and falls in support but the overall trajectory of the greens is UP.
 
Jark said:
of course there will be many surges and falls in support but the overall trajectory of the greens is UP.
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Support in opinion polls and support at the ballot are two difference things though.

I am a paid up Green, I am active in a party policy working group, and I'd still need to be satisfied that the threat of Reform in my area didn't require a tactical vote for Labour at a GE.
 
big ron said:
I am a paid up Green, I am active in a party policy working group, and I'd still need to be satisfied that the threat of Reform in my area didn't require a tactical vote for Labour at a GE.
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what stark difference would it make to have a Reform government vs a Labour one that makes a tactical vote necessary? genuine question. Labour are in right now and they're essentially doing Reform's work for them. home sec is becoming more extremist by the day.

I go back and forth on tactical voting. polling seems less reliable than ever. also Greens will be coming into the next GE in such a vastly different position to the last one that any sense of "they got 3% last time so realistically they don't stand a chance" just won't apply in most seats I think.
 
Jark said:
what stark difference would it make to have a Reform government vs a Labour one that makes a tactical vote necessary? genuine question. Labour are in right now and they're essentially doing Reform's work for them. home sec is becoming more extremist by the day.

I go back and forth on tactical voting. polling seems less reliable than ever. also Greens will be coming into the next GE in such a vastly different position to the last one that any sense of "they got 3% last time so realistically they don't stand a chance" just won't apply in most seats I think.
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I'd rather have a Labour that is a bit centre right than a bunch of horrible Russia funded tax dodging racist old men in power.
 
I just think we've all been playing this game too long and it feeds into Labour's hands at this point. we voted them in because they were not the Tories but they didn't reward that with any meaningful change in how the country is run. their entire strategy next time will be vote for us because we're not Reform and we're not mad socialists either.

I refuse to reward their incompetence (at best) and, more often, nastiness, with a vote. they're a fucking shit government. voting for them again to avoid the worst case feels kind of redundant when they themselves cannot be trusted to run the country.

I think I could only give Labour a vote tactically if they came into this election with a different leader and a vastly different vision for government. but there's no sign of that.
 
big ron said:
I'd rather have a Labour that is a bit centre right than a bunch of horrible Russia funded tax dodging racist old men in power.
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And yet the left are going to hand it to them the same way they did the Tories. Tactical voting actually worked in 2024 and got rid of the Tories for the first time in forever and now we’re going to undo it and swing even further right. Idealism to combat extremism is never going to work. They never ever learn.
 
funky said:
And yet the left are going to hand it to them the same way they did the Tories. Tactical voting actually worked in 2024 and got rid of the Tories for the first time in forever and now we’re going to undo it and swing even further right. Idealism to combat extremism is never going to work. They never ever learn.
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However this kind of thinking is how you get a Labour party that feels entitled to the left's votes though. Voting Green even if isn't the tactical best option has its merits in sending the message that Labour actually need to earn their votes.

Essentially, English Labour needs to learn what Scottish Labour (should have) learned 20 years ago, and the Greens seem the only vehicle for that. (The SNP absolutely need to learn that lesson too up here, they're coasting now)
 
Jark said:
what stark difference would it make to have a Reform government vs a Labour one that makes a tactical vote necessary? genuine question. Labour are in right now and they're essentially doing Reform's work for them. home sec is becoming more extremist by the day.
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Trust that I absolutely hate this Labour government but the damage that Reform would do even in a short time is beyond belief and would take decades to fix.

Even just zooming in on LGBT+ rights as one policy area - as bad as Labour are on trans stuff, they aren't threatening to scrap the Equality Act or take us out of the European Convention on Human Rights (one of the few tools that trans people have in challenging the current direction of travel).

I'm not saying this would justify a tactical vote but I wanted to put to bed the idea that Labour as just as bad as Reform would be. Reform would be EVEN WORSE to a considerable degree.
 
I think where I'm at currently is I obviously don't want Reform anywhere in power. But neither do I want Labour to keep basing every policy decision around attempting to appease Reform.

I want Labour to be just as fearful of the Greens and to start appeasing them as well.

Luckily the Greens are currently the second party in my area, and Reform a distant fourth, so I have more freedom to vote that way admittedly.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
However this kind of thinking is how you get a Labour party that feels entitled to the left's votes though. Voting Green even if isn't the tactical best option has its merits in sending the message that Labour actually need to earn their votes.

Essentially, English Labour needs to learn what Scottish Labour (should have) learned 20 years ago, and the Greens seem the only vehicle for that. (The SNP absolutely need to learn that lesson too up here, they're coasting now)
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The frustration is that I don’t disagree with you, nor do I oppose the idea of a Green government (although they might share one trait with Reform in that they may still be a few years of resource building away from being ready to govern, in terms of union relationships, lobbying power etc)

The fact is we live in a shitty political climate. Crossing our fingers and hoping that the majority of the country will suddenly educate and enlighten themselves enough to understand the impact of a government who just want to reduce the number of brown people in the country and everything else comes a distant second, filled with opportunists who are more interested in power than service, is a pipe dream.

It’s a choice between problematic or tragic. There is no option C.
 
ButterTart said:
If Starmer got ousted and Labour made a visible lurch to the left to tackle the threat from the Greens, would anyone here be more likely to vote for them again? In my constituency they’re literally the only viable choice to ward off Reform/Restore so the decision’s been made for me; I wondered what the consensus is in places where people have actual options.
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As someone who voted Green at the last general election, and in a seat that was their best second place nationally, NOT A FUCKING CHANCE.
 
It’s annoying that I don’t have any realistic options. I live in a constituency populated by comfortably-off white retirees, so naturally they vote for anyone who’ll send all the foreigners home. The only hope we have is they vote that but in red.
 
I very much support the current Green Party over Labour and I’m massively furious at what Labour has become under Starmer, but I can’t believe we’re even sat here having the fucking debate that a tactical vote for Labour is no different to Reform or that “they need to learn” at OUR FUCKING EXPENSE.

You’re also all ignoring what’s happened in America- the far right gets in on a (for them) liberal manifesto which they throw out the window once they’re emboldened in power and suddenly we’re living in a police state dictatorship and having our rights as gay and trans people stripped away by the day.

Sorry, but have a fucking word with yourselves.
 
The other thing is that Labour vs (last election’s) Tories was left centre vs right centre ish. This is vs the absolute far right. TOTALLY different ballgame. It cannot be allowed to happen and we must do whatever we can to stop it.
 
I'll vote for whoever stops Reform. Green/ Labour/ Lib Dem. Mad to even compare a bad version of Labour to the absolute horror of Reform. They are right wing extremists.
 
Sheena said:
You’re also all ignoring what’s happened in America
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What happened in America is also that the Democrats ran three "we're not Trump/fascists" campaigns, and only won one of them. Labour running a "we're not reform" campaign, from government, seems to me to be doomed to fail.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
What happened in America is also that the Democrats ran three "we're not Trump/fascists" campaigns, and only won one of them. Labour running a "we're not reform" campaign, from government, seems to me to be doomed to fail.
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Which isn’t the point. Never said it was going to work or otherwise. But every right minded person in the fucking world has to do what they can to stop it rather than dying on their high horse.
 
Oh I'd absolutely vote Labour to stop Reform. I'm aware I'm privileged that at least how things stand, I don't need to consider it.
 
a lot of the tactical voting options in which people vote for Labour through gritted teeth will be based on the idea that the Greens cannot win though. but what is that based on? past elections which won't be relevant if the party has transformed itself into something electable? voting intention polling which as Denton just showed can be wildly off?

maybe in seats won by a big majority (or any kind of majority) by the Tories/Reform in the last election, we can safely say that any left vote will be split and a vote for the Greens is wasted. but there aren't too many of those.

maybe if there are further by-elections won handsomely by the Greens prior to the next GE people will see that they really are not a wasted vote. that's it's a movement worth joining. I find it reductive to say that if you want to save the country from Reform you have to vote tactically and if you don't you're "dying on your high horse".

I don't think there's anything very high horsey about voting for a party that could feasibly form the next government in one way or another. the alternative is putting all your trust in polling and "expert" data that frequently just isn't correct. and then what? 5k people in a seat look at a result that found Labour finishing in third or fourth place and think, hmmm, I could've voted for the party who came second after all? there's no exact science. I'm all for people voting with their heart.
 
just to be clear this Labour government would rather see Reform elected than the Greens. that should tell you plenty about the material differences in the various scenarios that could play out.
 
Jark said:
a lot of the tactical voting options in which people vote for Labour through gritted teeth will be based on the idea that the Greens cannot win though. but what is that based on? past elections which won't be relevant if the party has transformed itself into something electable? voting intention polling which as Denton just showed can be wildly off?

maybe in seats won by a big majority (or any kind of majority) by the Tories/Reform in the last election, we can safely say that any left vote will be split and a vote for the Greens is wasted. but there aren't too many of those.

maybe if there are further by-elections won handsomely by the Greens prior to the next GE people will see that they really are not a wasted vote. IDK. I find it reductive to say that if you want to save the country from Reform you have to vote tactically and if you don't you're "dying on your high horse".

I don't think there's anything very high horsey about voting for a party that could feasibly form the next government in one way or another. the alternative is putting all your trust in polling and "expert" data that frequently just isn't correct. and then what? 5k people in a seat look at a result that found Labour finishing in third or fourth place and think, hmmm, I could've voted for the party who came second after all? there's no exact science. I'm all for people voting with their heart.
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I agree, but it’s not the way our voting system works, sadly.

The “dying on a horse” comment wasn’t aimed at you, though, petal. (And that’s also different to being on a “high horse” in my head!)
 
ButterTart said:
If Starmer got ousted and Labour made a visible lurch to the left to tackle the threat from the Greens, would anyone here be more likely to vote for them again? In my constituency they’re literally the only viable choice to ward off Reform/Restore so the decision’s been made for me; I wondered what the consensus is in places where people have actual options.
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Absolutely. My local MP seems like a good egg broadly, so if the party turned things around, I'd happily give her a vote.

It's not like I don't have misgivings about the Green Party, it's just my misgivings about the Labour government are currently more significant.
 
They say that perfect is the enemy of good and this was used a lot to try and get people to vote Labour at the election when they had serious concerns re: policy and around statements made by the leadership. All of those misgivings came absolutely true. The Greens are now electorally viable and this is bound to increase interest. Labour now have a nationally viable competitor where previously, they've only really had to deal with regional ones (SNP and Plaid Cymru, mainly). Again, The Greens are not perfect but they are significantly better. Labour are burying their heads in the sand and still trying to appease Reform voters who will never, ever vote for them. Labour's only hope is that people begin to feel financially better which, IMO, will not happen to a significant enough degree. GREENS UP!
 
it doesn't sound particularly positive.

The statutory legal duty under EU law to provide asylum seekers with support and accommodation would be revoked on Thursday, the Home Office said.

Instead, it would be replaced with a conditional approach, so support would be reserved only for those who genuinely needed it and followed the law.

The measures, which will be laid in parliament and come into force in June, would remove support payments and accommodation to asylum seekers who illegally work, have the ability to support themselves, have the right to work or have broken the law.

The Home Office did not respond to questions asking if the 21,000 would be restricted to jobs on the “immigration salary list”.
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sounds more like they've said fuck our legal duty under EU law - we'll decide case by case whether you "genuinely need" support (which in itself sounds time consuming) and we'll make you homeless if you don't meet some unspecified criteria. genuine need sounds extremely subjective.

the amount of "case by case" horror stories coming out of the home office suggests they don't have the resources to do this.

also, many asylum seekers will be illegally working and making tiny amounts of money doing so, enough to buy food and essentials but not pay rent and be self sufficient. they know this. so saying anyone doing so won't be eligible for support of any kind will likely just increase homelessness.
 
So - she wants to limit refugees to appeal to the right, but grant employment to asylum seekers to appeal to the left, simultaneously pissing off both sides in the process, and administering neither policy fairly.

I mean at least pick a side and keep a FEW people happy :D at this rate her approval rating will be in the minus figures!
 
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