The War in Ukraine

Ag said:
Not really sure what the aim of it is. Most likely infuriation that the West have been scuppering his plans. Alternatively he's trying to provoke all out war.
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The aim of it is that when Russia declares the occupied areas as Russian, it will be able to send conscripts there, hence the mobilisation announcement. Although it has happened up to now here and there, it is against Russian law to send conscripts abroad. This move removes that obstacle as Russia has run out of volunteer contract soldiers.
 
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ZenGiraffe said:
But the people around him would never let that happen. There are plenty of wealthy powerful people who would get rid of him if their livelihoods were endangered.
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The security services and military are in control and a lot of those are more nuts and brutal than Putin. At this moment it's better the devil you know.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine war: Russians flee to border after military call-up

Georgia's border sees large queues after flights sell out as some fighting-age men flee Russia.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

This is all so sad. It’s like reading a report from WW2. People today generally just don’t associate with war - even in Russia. Imagine playing PlayStation and drinking in the pub one day and then being loaded into a wagon the next. Probably to be asked to shoot at people for no reason. Horrific.
 
The reports of anti-war protesters who were arrested yesterday, being served with draft papers are pretty disgusting. They're not even denying it, but stating "well it's not against the law".
 
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win_the_game said:
The reports of anti-war protesters who were arrested yesterday, being served with draft papers are pretty disgusting. They're not even denying it, but stating "well it's not against the law".
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It's just... baffling. These people aren't going to fight when on the front line. They aren't going inspire motivation. If you think the current army is shit and demotivated, just wait until the pacifist uni students join in.
 
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have banned all Russian tourists saying that should not be enjoying freedom while their government attacks Ukraine. I wonder if that's a policy designed to keep the new wave of Russian asylum seekers out of their countries?

So sad and hopeless.
 
Indie said:
It's just... baffling. These people aren't going to fight when on the front line. They aren't going inspire motivation. If you think the current army is shit and demotivated, just wait until the pacifist uni students join in.
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I've seen a few videos today of the first lot of drafts turning up, getting pissed, passing out and fighting. Mostly before they've as so much got on a bus!

There's also the question of what they're actually going to equip this estimated 1 million new drafts with, seeing as they've been rolling antiquated tanks out of storage for months.
 
Tisch said:
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have banned all Russian tourists saying that should not be enjoying freedom while their government attacks Ukraine. I wonder if that's a policy designed to keep the new wave of Russian asylum seekers out of their countries?

So sad and hopeless.
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Some of them have been proposing that for several months. I think they were hoping for a pan-European approach but since that hasn't happened, they've gone ahead regardless. Finland seems to be following their lead.
 
Tisch said:
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have banned all Russian tourists saying that should not be enjoying freedom while their government attacks Ukraine.
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This is utter bull people leaving their countries to save themselves from a war should be given asylum seeking status everywhere, not punished for sth they cannot control, if they could control it they wouldn't be leaving.
 
Countries are already heaving under the weight of Ukraine immigration though. I think there should be temporary measures to support asylum seekers avoiding a war draft; if for no other reason than it helps transition the mentality of the general Russian population away from the general Russia = good, rest of world = evil

I mean that won’t be easy but it’s a start

The only way to stop this war now (any war really) is to crush the propaganda machine. This might be a breakthrough.
 
Yes an unfortunate as it might be for the Russian people, flooding Europe with Russian refugees in addition to the Ukrainians plays right into Putin's hands.
 
Better to leave Russians who have never wanted anything to do with this but had very little choice to be drafted, imprisoned or killed, I suppose.

It's funny how for some there are "good refugees" and "oh we're a bit full with Ukrainians at the moment; better leave them where they are" refugees.
 
I'm also quite fascinated by the double-think of certain Brits that Russians deserve this as they should have done more to overthrow Putin. Meanwhile, let's go live to the UK which has been taken over by a far-right nationalist government since 2016, who have enacted increasingly disgraceful policies and implemented laws limiting rights to protest... where are those Brits who should have overthrow the last three governments?
 
It is obviously horrible for the Russians being forced into this, but flooding border countries that you have an eye on annexing with your own citizens is basically irredentism 101. You can’t really blame the Baltic nations for not wanting to play that game right now…
 
The talk about refusing Russians tourist visas has been ongoing since the summer and had nothing to do with the mobilisation of troops. It’s strange that we want to strangle their economy and make them revolt but at the same time allow their middle class fun trips to Europe. They should’ve stopped that back in February.

Not letting in refugees is a whole different matter and I’m sure the progressive EU countries would have trouble not accepting it.
 
VoR said:
It is obviously horrible for the Russians being forced into this, but flooding border countries that you have an eye on annexing with your own citizens is basically irredentism 101. You can’t really blame the Baltic nations for not wanting to play that game right now…
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It's hard for me not to view this topic personally. My bf went back to Russia to say goodbye to his dying grandfather two weeks ago, and left via Yerevan afterwards. If he had gone two weeks later, he would be stuck there and facing a draft. It's easy to take in broad brushstrokes about geopolitics, until it becomes deeply, deeply personal.
 
I can't get my head around it at all. I understand the situation and history with many of the bordering countries is tense and complex, but some of the official comments coming out are beyond belief. "These Russians who want to flee were fine with the invasion of and killing of Ukrainians, so we can't let them in." Erm what? Lovely blanket statements there, I'm sure all taken from interviews with each one of the thousands fleeing a horrible regime who are clearly all evil too.

Maybe the real worry is that the numbers are going to be so huge they'll struggle but surely if bordering countries worked together on this (yes fantasising now) plus a combination of allowing safe passage through to Europe, the impact will be lessened.

I feel like otherwise all it does is reinforce the West is evil stories which a lot of people attempting to flee might not necessarily believe, but some will, the Russian media can certainly spin it as such to those who remain, and then imagine what a slap in the face it is for Russians who see it exactly for what it is and want to leave, being told no you can't come in, by a group of countries who are actively condemning the actions of the country they're trying to escape from! It's fucking absurd. Once again it's a case of doing what suits and humanitarian needs get dumped in the bin.
 
I do get that there are probably some Russians who believed the propaganda machine, and now they or their family are being called up, have suddenly questioned it. But that is hardly the same as making out all these people were baying for Ukranian blood for no reason. Newsflash, that's what happens when you live under that regime. Look at North Korea. Look at the United Kingdom who has a population facing struggles financially, in healthcare and elsewhere etc, but is seemingly outraged to the VERY BONE if you dare to suggest that a disgustingly rich family - the total opposite of everything most of these people have or are going through - shouldn't be there. We're even WORSE.

"Lovely lady that Queen, she does so much for us," said a frostbite-ridden Elsie, as she slowly dies of hypothermia in her armchair. "Not like those Russian people, horrible the lot of 'em, they'll believe anything"
 
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Well that is a lovely piece of positivity in all this. Not sure how Russia reacts to that which is always a worry but that's been the case since day 1. I'll do myself a favour and leave this thread with "Zelensky in me now" thoughts instead
 
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It's all just so scary and sad. Yes Russia is the aggressor and we should be supporting and protecting Ukraine and its people, but I feel for Russians who know whats up and want no part in this.

I work with a Ukranian(actually half Ukranian half Russian) girl here in Reykjavík who came here in May.

Yesterday she was telling me about her friend - a brilliant bright young girl from Moscow, who by all accounts hates Putin. She took a trip to Istanbul a few weeks ago.

She is now stuck in Turkey, with limited documents, scared shitless of flying home and getting conscripted but also facing a ban on getting most places in Europe.
 
On the flipside, countries like Lithuania have had the threat of Russian invasion dangled over them for years, they've been subjugated by the USSR multiple times in living memory, and they have citizens who can remember their peaceful protesters being crushed under soviet tanks, so at a time when Russia is waging war in Ukraine under the guise of 'there are Russians there, so it's Russia, and we need to liberate it', I can't blame them for saying no to Russian refugees.

It's not the refugees' fault, but I do think it is sadly more complicated than these countries just being dicks about it.
 
Also for the moment the situation for the Russians is not at all analogous to what's happening to the Ukrainians. Their homes aren't being shelled daily. They do have escape routes, and if they refuse to fight they face prison, not death. (Obviously that may change given Putin's clear disregard for the lives of his own people).

It's really shit, but as RS points out, making life difficult for them is kind of the point. Putin himself isn't feeling the pain from the Russian economy being gutted by sanctions, but if his people eventually do get sick of all this enough to rise up en masse, he will. Short of an all-out war with Russia which would most likely kill us all, there's no other realistic path to regime change.

For Putin, there's really no downside to all the anti-war Russians fleeing the country. It just destabilises the west, potentially creates massive internal conflict among the NATO countries, and dampens resistance to his authority at home.
 
GNL said:
On the flipside, countries like Lithuania have had the threat of Russian invasion dangled over them for years, they've been subjugated by the USSR multiple times in living memory, and they have citizens who can remember their peaceful protesters being crushed under soviet tanks, so at a time when Russia is waging war in Ukraine under the guise of 'there are Russians there, so it's Russia, and we need to liberate it', I can't blame them for saying no to Russian refugees.

It's not the refugees' fault, but I do think it is sadly more complicated than these countries just being dicks about it.
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Yes it's easy for me (us) to forget the flip side of things talking from a place of safety when there's such a hostile history there. All those reasons are understandable, as are the security risks it may or not open. And of course it's not the same as being bombed and losing your homes and lives etc, so I understand it, to a degree. But choice wording of blaming Russian citizens needs to be avoided surely. I find that somehow worse than the refusal.

If we have to condemn a nation like Russia so heavily, you're acknowledging it's not exactly the greatest place to live. There do at least seem to be alternative escape routes for some which is something.
 
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Yeah that's basically where I am with it....what's happening in Russia is obviously in no way comparable to what's happening in Ukraine, and I get the idea that if things do become intolerable for Russians they would(hopefully) demand change and fight to overthrow their dictator and chief.

I also understand the concerns of the baltic nations especially, and don't think less of them for saying no. I just don't think some of the pointed language aimed at Russian civilians(again no way comparable to whats happening in Ukraine) is helpful.
 
On the basis of the rusty weapons they've been handing out, I'm not surprised at any of that.
 
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