The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

Genuine question - how can anyone say that the UN has a disproportionate bias against Israel when Israel is a UN-recognized country and Palestine remains contested?

Doesn't the bias start with whether you even exist?
 
Also the ICC, as well as a number of official international bodies, have called for Netenyahu to be arrested for war crimes. That's not yapping in the streets and social media.

Also if he hadn't enacted a media blackout during the war - almost unprecedented - then maybe Israel could prove that they're not commiting genocidal acts.
 
Dark Carnival said:
The Palestinian authority has recognized Israel in 1993. The current Palestinian authority in the West Bank has no project of eradicating Israel. Israel could have been dealing with a moderate authority in the Gaza as well but instead chose to support Hamas and I quote Natenyahu here, "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

The current Israeli regime needs as much denazification as Gaza.
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so the PA recognized Israel in 1993, and then spent decades funding terrorists, inciting violence in schools, and losing all credibility with its own people. meanwhile, Hamas took over Gaza, won elections, and turned it into a launchpad for jihad. but sure, blame Israel for supporting Hamas, as if Hamas isn’t a genocidal terror cult that openly calls for Israel’s destruction and butchers civilians by design. quoting Netanyahu doesn’t change the fact that Hamas exists because millions voted for it, not because Israel plotted it into power.

also lol the only Jewish state on earth, founded by Holocaust survivors and surrounded by genocidal threats, needs to be “denazified”? cute.

If funding extremists justifies this, erm, "denazification," then the U.S. should’ve been "denazified" for funding the mujahideen in Afghanistan, or training militias in Latin America, no?
 
joanne said:
there's no genocide going on in Gaza. the UN, which has demonstrated a consistent and disproportionate bias against Israel over the decades, has not declared it to be a genocide because here is no clear legal basis to label the Gaza war as genocide.. under the Genocide Convention, intent to destroy a group must be proven, not just civilian deaths or suffering. war crimes may have occurred, but genocide requires intent, not just impact. that burden of proof has not been met, no matter how much screeching and yapping is churned out on the streets and social media
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a. There is a genocide. The Israel government are aware of the consequences but they carry on. They kill people in food queues. They are allowing hundreds to starve to death. That's a FUCKING GENOCIDE.
b. FUCK OFF CUNT.
c. Ban this fucking right wing moronic prick please.
 
According to a United Nations Special Committee, Amnesty International, Médecins Sans Frontières,B'Tselem, genocide studies and international law scholars, and other experts, Israel is committing genocide in Gaza against the Palestinians during its ongoing blockade, invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip.The acts of genocide described by experts and human rights organisations include large-scale killing and use of starvation as a weapon of war. Other such genocidal acts include destroying civilian infrastructure, killing healthcare workers and aid-seekers, using mass forced displacement, committing sexual violence, and preventing births.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
Imagine seeing all the footage and pictures from Gaza, and having numerous genocidal statements from Netanyahu and his ministers, and still saying this.
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imagine seeing all the footage from Gaza and still ignoring that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas, stores weapons in hospitals and schools, and uses its own people as human shields, because that IS the strategy: manufacture civilian suffering for global outrage. as for “genocidal statements,” cherry-picking inflammatory quotes doesn’t prove genocide. the Genocide Convention requires specific intent to destroy a group as such, not brutal war, not civilian casualties, not even reckless rhetoric. and if statements alone were enough, Hamas’s charter explicitly calls for Israel’s annihilation and the murder of Jews, and YET many people still defend or excuse Hamas as "justified resistance".

war is horrific. but throwing around the term “genocide” while ignoring context, law, and the actions of a terrorist cult is not righteous activism, it’s textbook propaganda.

also, my final note before i doze off in bed:

yes, this discussion is paralyzed by pure antisemitism.

in the last 2 months, over 100,000 Sudanese children have died from starvation.

read that sentence again, and let it sink in.

100,000 Sudanese children have died from starvation in the last 2 months.

how many pages on this forum have been catered to discuss the suffering of MILLIONS of Sudanese people? nada. zero.

and if you're actually well-versed on the regional conflict in Sudan you would know that the West is just as involved there as it is in Gaza.

goodnight.

p.s. im not "right-wing" - never voted for the right in my entire life. im just well aware of antisemitism and how it colors almost every discussion about the Jewish people. :) Europe literally mass slaughtered 6 million Jews not too many generations ago. antisemitism is the language of the world, and it makes sense that logic and reasoning is thrown out the window when defending the Jewish people defending their right to exist.
 
joanne said:
imagine seeing all the footage from Gaza and still ignoring that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas, stores weapons in hospitals and schools, and uses its own people as human shields, because that IS the strategy: manufacture civilian suffering for global outrage. as for “genocidal statements,” cherry-picking inflammatory quotes doesn’t prove genocide. the Genocide Convention requires specific intent to destroy a group as such, not brutal war, not civilian casualties, not even reckless rhetoric. and if statements alone were enough, Hamas’s charter explicitly calls for Israel’s annihilation and the murder of Jews, and YET many people still defend or excuse Hamas as "justified resistance".

war is horrific. but throwing around the term “genocide” while ignoring context, law, and the actions of a terrorist cult is not righteous activism, it’s textbook propaganda.

also, my final note before i doze off in bed:

yes, this discussion is paralyzed by pure antisemitism.

in the last 2 months, over 100,000 Sudanese children have died from starvation.

read that sentence again, and let it sink in.

100,000 Sudanese children have died from starvation in the last 2 months.

how many pages on this forum have been catered to discuss the suffering of MILLIONS of Sudanese people? nada. zero.

and if you're actually well-versed on the regional conflict in Sudan you would know that the West is just as involved there as it is in Gaza.

goodnight.

p.s. im not "right-wing" - never voted for the right in my entire life. im just well aware of antisemitism and how it colors almost every discussion about the Jewish people. :) Europe literally mass slaughtered 6 million Jews not too many generations ago. antisemitism is the language of the world, and it makes sense that logic and reasoning is thrown out the window when defending the Jewish people defending their right to exist.
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Hope you have nightmares cunt.
 
We're defending Hamas and we're antisemitic. SAME OLD SHIT to excuse the FUCKING GENOCIDE YOU STUPID CUNT. Not to even mention the whataboutism.
 
Oh, joanne.

We can discuss ad nauseam the reasons why Hamas exists (imo more because of illegal occupation, Israel's disproportionate responses against those resisting said occupation, and Netanyahu's machinations to inhibit the emergence of a viable Palestinian state; less because 40% of perennially-disenfranchised Gazan adults - not 'millions' - most of whom have likely been butchered by this stage, voted for them some two decades ago) or the legitimate concerns about how antisemitism frames and fuels certain perspectives about the Israeli state (though I'd argue that our longstanding (and abhorrent) discrimination against Jews as well as the (righteous) weight of Holocaust remembrance has paralysed the West's collective response to what's been happening post-Oct 7). We've been prevaricating as such for almost two years now, no?

All this wringing our hands over justification, rationale, and terminology has achieved nothing. Call it something other than the obvious genocide it is if that makes it easier to process. The reality is that we have an emaciated population struggling to subsist, getting gunned down by an exponentially-mightier military force simply for trying to exist, all while being increasingly concentrated into smaller and smaller holding pens of decimated land. If that doesn't remind us of historical wrongs and consequently stir an instinctive urge to act on behalf of the people in question, then I'd question the whole point of Holocaust remembrance as well as what remains of our supposed humanity.
 
framing Western caution as paralysis due to guilt is not only reductive, it’s historically unjust. the memory of the Holocaust isn’t just a burden of the past, it’s a moral compass meant to ensure that Jews are never again left stateless and undefended. to use that very remembrance as a lens for cynicism, or worse, to question its point, is not a moral stance. It’s an erasure of history that brought us to this geopolitical reality in the first place.

criticize Israeli policy. demand accountability. mourn the devastation in Gaza: but don’t weaponize the Holocaust to delegitimize the existence of the only Jewish state, especially when it remains under existential threat from genocidal actors like Hamas, Hezbollah, the fascist regime in Iran, and from neighboring countries that have long sought the destruction of Israel, when over half of Israel’s population consists of Jews who were persecuted, expelled, and fled as refugees from those very countries.

misusing the term genocide frames Jews as uniquely evil, a dangerous echo of the soul of antisemitism: "Jewish power" is inherently destructive and aims to destroy and corrupt, no matter the context.
 
joanne said:
the memory of the Holocaust isn’t just a burden of the past, it’s a moral compass meant to ensure that Jews are never again left stateless and undefended.
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No. That's the problem. It's a moral compass meant to ensure that no other people whatsoever are never left again stateless and undefended.
There are no better people and less better people who deserve it or are asking for it as you have been implying. The whole point is that no people will have to go through that again.
 
My apologies to everyone except the village idiot. I was rather tired yesterday, and their nonsense was somewhat provocative. Thank you to all those who provided better responses.
 
Marina Salty said:
No. That's the problem. It's a moral compass meant to ensure that no other people whatsoever are never left again stateless and undefended.
There are no better people and less better people who deserve it or are asking for it as you have been implying. The whole point is that no people will have to go through that again.
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agreed, the Holocaust should serve as a moral compass and solemn reminder that no people should ever again be left stateless or undefended, but there are missing crucial details.

since the very birth of the Israel - while Israel was built as a refuge after genocide - the Palestinian leadership and people have, time and again, rejected coexistence and peace. not out of a desire for borders, but out of refusal to accept a Jewish state in any borders at all.

Israel has officially offered Palestinian statehood FIVE TIMES, and unofficially more than TEN. each time met not with compromise, but with rejection and violence, bus bombings, stabbings, and finally October 7. the consistent response has NEVER been “let’s negotiate” - but “we will not accept a Jewish state.”
 
joanne said:
misusing the term genocide frames Jews as uniquely evil, a dangerous echo of the soul of antisemitism: "Jewish power" is inherently destructive and aims to destroy and corrupt, no matter the context.
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Frames ISRAEL. Not frames Jews. ISRAEL.

Until you’re able to separate this very distinct point it’s very difficult to take anything you say seriously.
 
Jews are Israel and Israel is Jews.

Israel is the only guarantee for Jews to live, relatively safe, away from European and Middle Eastern Holocausts. the vast majority of Jews are pro-Israel zionists.

there's no "disconnect" between Jews and Israel. it's like trying to divorce Swedes from Sweden.
 
Sweden haven't spent half a century repressing Denmark in ways both imaginative and utterly cruel.
 
I am framing the actions of the Israeli state as SAVAGE AND INTENTIONALLY GEONICIDAL.
 
The mod team would like to take a moment to explain the action we took and the reasoning behind it.

Following a report, Ag was given 3 warning points for his behaviour, in particular, trolling and personal abuse. e.g.:

AGinAg (37) said:
Hope you have nightmares cunt.
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This did not trigger any additional restrictions, and Ag's ability to post freely in any thread remains. The mod team felt this was proportionate. We have said before that in this thread in particular that moderation will be more hands on than elsewhere on Moopy, in an effort to keep the thread civil.

The mod team also looked at the posts by Joanne. We acknowledge that the views they expressed are not widely held nor popular on Moopy, however we do not feel it is the moderators place to censor posts or posters just because their views are disagreeable or widely perceived as "wrong". The mod team did not feel that a line was clearly crossed that went into the territory of personal attacks, or clear and deliberate trolling, and so no formal action has been taken against Joanne.

We would like to remind everyone of the first post in this thread, and that if you feel a post has went too far, to use the report button so that Mods can take a view and take action if necessary. We do not want to lock threads if we can avoid it.

This thread has now been unlocked.
 
joanne said:
Jews are Israel and Israel is Jews.

Israel is the only guarantee for Jews to live, relatively safe, away from European and Middle Eastern Holocausts. the vast majority of Jews are pro-Israel zionists.

there's no "disconnect" between Jews and Israel. it's like trying to divorce Swedes from Sweden.
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If Jews really do consider themselves to all be Israel (which I do not believe they all do) then fine. They don't then get to divorce themselves from every Palestinian death caused by Netanyahu's political state.

Israel have been very good at blurring the lines of religion / ethnicity / political state to try to immunise themselves against criticism of their appalling political deeds (say anything and you're ANTI-SEMITIC), and your post completely feeds into that.
 
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Shoat said:
Israel have been very good at blurring the lines of religion / ethnicity / political state to try to immunise themselves against criticism of their appalling political deeds (say anything and you're ANTI-SEMITIC), and your post completely feeds into that.
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Jews are not merely a “group of people.” Judaism is an ethnoreligion. it's nothing like Christianity or Islam.

Judaism is an identity that is both ethnic and religious, intertwined and inseparable. this is not unique to Jews: the Druze, Yazidis, and Tibetan Buddhists are also ethnoreligious communities, where religion, ancestry, culture, and peoplehood are deeply bound together. you can become ex-Christian or ex-Muslim, but you can't become ex-Druze or ex-Jew, because it is also an ethnicity. most Jews are ethnically Jewish but not religious. kinda like how most Norwegians who identify as ex-Christians are not ex-Norwegians. calling Israel's ethnoreligious foundation (which is admittedly confusing) “blurring the lines” is quite dehumanizing. It implies intentional deception, as if Jewish identity is a PR strategy instead of a real, lived experience passed through families, rituals, languages, and trauma.

Shoat said:
If Jews really do consider themselves to all be Israel (which I do not believe they all do) then fine. They don't then get to divorce themselves from every Palestinian death caused by Netanyahu's political state.
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to say that all Jews are collectively responsible for every decision made by the Israeli government is troubling. you're holding an entire ethnoreligious group morally hostage to the actions of a sovereign state.... which is a standard applied to no other people...

do we hold Iranians worldwide accountable for the executions of protesters by the Islamic Regime in Iran? do we demand that Chinese people apologize for the CCP’s treatment of Uyghurs? do Russians abroad owe the world personal explanations for every missile Putin fires at Ukraine?
 
joanne said:
to say that all Jews are collectively responsible for every decision made by the Israeli government is troubling. you're holding an entire ethnoreligious group morally hostage to the actions of a sovereign state.... which is a standard applied to no other people...
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I agree that this is a troubling stance to take, and not one that I think anybody on here actually believes, BUT it is also the logical conclusion if you’re going to assert that criticism of the Israeli government’s actions in Gaza is also a criticism of the Jewish people as a whole.

Which is it?
 
joanne said:
Jews are not merely a “group of people.” Judaism is an ethnoreligion. it's nothing like Christianity or Islam.

Judaism is an identity that is both ethnic and religious, intertwined and inseparable. this is not unique to Jews: the Druze, Yazidis, and Tibetan Buddhists are also ethnoreligious communities, where religion, ancestry, culture, and peoplehood are deeply bound together. you can become ex-Christian or ex-Muslim, but you can't become ex-Druze or ex-Jew, because it is also an ethnicity. most Jews are ethnically Jewish but not religious. kinda like how most Norwegians who identify as ex-Christians are not ex-Norwegians. calling Israel's ethnoreligious foundation (which is admittedly confusing) “blurring the lines” is quite dehumanizing. It implies intentional deception, as if Jewish identity is a PR strategy instead of a real, lived experience passed through families, rituals, languages, and trauma.
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My point was in relation to the Israeli government blurring the lines between their political state and Judaism. I am not suggesting that Jewish identity itself does not exist; just that it is being used by a specific government as a bit of a mask.


joanne said:
to say that all Jews are collectively responsible for every decision made by the Israeli government is troubling. you're holding an entire ethnoreligious group morally hostage to the actions of a sovereign state.... which is a standard applied to no other people...
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Pingu's put it far better than me - but that is completely the point I'm making. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot scream that criticising the Israeli government = criticising all Jews, but then still claim that Jews ≠ Israeli government decisions. You are picking and choosing which side depending on what is convenient for your argument at the time.

Nobody is screaming racism or xenophobia at anyone who criticises Russia.
 
you’re arguing against a claim i never made. criticism of Israeli policy is not antisemitic, and i never said it was. criticism of the existence of Israel is deeply antisemitic. however, much of what passes as “criticism” of Israel today isn’t about policy, it’s about the existence of Israel altogether.... not on Moopy, but on the internet and the streets.

also, kinda wild how Ag wrote "death to the idf," basically calling for the death of the majority of Israeli Jews (enlisting in the IDF is mandatory for Israeli Jews), and managed to call me genocidal in the same breath, when i have clearly never murmured a single genocidal or violent sentiment towards Palestinians. the exact opposite, i have expressed deep sympathy towards Palestinian suffering since the start of this thread.

and i end up getting called unhinged by @Jark who literally stans Ava Max...
 
ZenGiraffe said:
You very much did make the claim
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Had you quoted the entire post, he was referring to Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state and the national identity being Jewish. @Shoat however took that and countered (flippantly or not) if Israel is a Jewish state, then Jews are therefore personally responsible for every Palestinian death caused by their government, which is what Joanne was rightfully criticizing:

They don't then get to divorce themselves from every Palestinian death caused by Netanyahu's political state.
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