The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

joanne said:
however, much of what passes as “criticism” of Israel today isn’t about policy, it’s about the existence of Israel altogether.... not on Moopy, but on the internet and the streets.
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I certainly would not argue that Israel shouldn't exist.

But this is where the Israeli government are highlighting their hypocrisy. Denying the existence of a state is EXACTLY what they are doing with Palestine at the moment.
 
POP! said:
@Shoat however took that and countered (flippantly or not) if Israel is a Jewish state, then Jews are therefore personally responsible for every Palestinian death caused by their government, which is what Joanne was rightfully criticizing:
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You have misinterpreted my point.

My point was not that if Israel is a Jewish state that all Jews are responsible. I'm not arguing that any more than I would argue all Muslims are responsible for Hamas.

My point was in response to previous posts that read specifically as if one can't distinguish between Judaism and Israel (see Joanne's sentence that has been quoted several times). But you cannot logically argue that if you then don't accept Judaism is responsible for Israeli government actions.

My view is actually that you CAN distinguish between Judaism and the Israeli government. Which means the criticising the Israeli government is NOT an anti-semitic attack on Judaism, which is a narrative that certain voices have been keen to push.
 
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Shoat said:
You have misinterpreted my point.

My point was not that if Israel is a Jewish state that all Jews are responsible. I'm not arguing that any more than I would argue all Muslims are responsible for Hamas.

My point was in response to previous posts that read specifically as if one can't distinguish between Judaism and Israel (see Joanne's sentence that has been quoted several times). You cannot logically argue that if you then don't accept Judaism is responsible for Israeli government actions. I don't subscribe to that. What that also means though is one CAN criticise the Israeli government without it being an anti-semitic attack on Judaism, which certainly voices are very keen to push as a narrative.
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Well I certainly agree with that last sentence- but that’s not what you said. Which is why I think Joanne (and I) took it differently. Whether Netanyahu or anyone else justifies their actions with a religious belief or right, does not mean ALL Jewish people endorse the actions of Netanyahu’s government or are responsible for the deaths of civilians, that’s all. Hopefully you see the distinction there.
 
POP! said:
Well I certainly agree with that last sentence- but that’s not what you said. Which is why I think Joanne (and I) took it differently.
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Which is why reading in context is important. My comment was directly quote-replying to Joanne asserting Judaism = Israel. So I should have thought it clear.
 
Shoat said:
Which is why reading in context is important. My comment was directly quote-replying to Joanne asserting Judaism = Israel. So I should have thought it clear.
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I read it in context, it was still an absurd comment. I don’t think you meant it in the way it came off, is all…
 
joanne said:
so the PA recognized Israel in 1993, and then spent decades funding terrorists, inciting violence in schools, and losing all credibility with its own people. meanwhile, Hamas took over Gaza, won elections, and turned it into a launchpad for jihad. but sure, blame Israel for supporting Hamas, as if Hamas isn’t a genocidal terror cult that openly calls for Israel’s destruction and butchers civilians by design. quoting Netanyahu doesn’t change the fact that Hamas exists because millions voted for it, not because Israel plotted it into power.

also lol the only Jewish state on earth, founded by Holocaust survivors and surrounded by genocidal threats, needs to be “denazified”? cute.

If funding extremists justifies this, erm, "denazification," then the U.S. should’ve been "denazified" for funding the mujahideen in Afghanistan, or training militias in Latin America, no?
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joanne, love, please go back to my post and tell me exactly where I said Israel as a Jewish state needs to be denazified. I specifically stated the current political regime. Both Israel and the Palestinian territories have known way more moderate views.

The current Israeli regime has had an undeniable role in funding Hamas and failing to see some part of responsibility from BOTH sides in the current situation is a guarantee that things will only get worse like they have marvelously done over the past 20+ years.

Two independent states that recognize each other according to internationally recognized borders is the minimum requirement to come even close to ending the violence, though I believe that ship has probably sailed for this generation of people in the region with all the polarisation and just blind hatred people brew for each other.
 
Israel have lost Germany. This proposed occupation of Gaza City might actually be the step too far (that should have been recognised years ago) for the international community

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In a statement, Starmer said:

The Israeli government’s decision to further escalate its offensive in Gaza is wrong, and we urge it to reconsider immediately. This action will do nothing to bring an end to this conflict or to help secure the release of the hostages. It will only bring more bloodshed.
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Still nothing on sanctions/halting arms sales then, but you best believe he'll be giving Netanyahu such a look at the next meeting of the UN Security Council. :side-eye:
 
Dark Carnival said:
joanne, love, please go back to my post and tell me exactly where I said Israel as a Jewish state needs to be denazified. I specifically stated the current political regime. Both Israel and the Palestinian territories have known way more moderate views.

The current Israeli regime has had an undeniable role in funding Hamas and failing to see some part of responsibility from BOTH sides in the current situation is a guarantee that things will only get worse like they have marvelously done over the past 20+ years.

Two independent states that recognize each other according to internationally recognized borders is the minimum requirement to come even close to ending the violence, though I believe that ship has probably sailed for this generation of people in the region with all the polarisation and just blind hatred people brew for each other.
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you’re backpedaling. if Israel’s “regime” needs to be “denazified,” that’s not a neutral "policy critique," it’s Holocaust inversion, language deliberately chosen to smear Jews with the crimes committed against them. pretending that’s just about Netanyahu’s cabinet is revisionism at best, gaslighting at worst.

second, the “Israel funded Hamas” talking point is a distortion. israel, like the U.S. in Afghanistan, played tactical games it later regretted. but Hamas isn’t some Frankenstein created in a lab. it was elected by Palestinians in 2006, it rules Gaza with an iron fist, and it continues to be openly celebrated in Palestinian public life. trying to reframe Hamas as a mere Israeli project erases Palestinian agency and infantilizes millions of people who chose jihadist leadership.

third, your “both sides” framing is lazy equivalence. Israel is a democracy whose government changes by election. Hamas is a theocratic death cult that hasn’t allowed an election in almost 20 years and literally writes genocide into its charter. to conflate them is to collapse the difference between flawed governance and fanatical mass murder.

lastly, the “two states” line ignores a brutal truth that I have repeated numerous times but keeps falling on death ears: Palestinians have rejected a state every time it’s been offered, 5 times, because each deal required them to accept a Jewish state next door. the reason that ship has sailed isn’t because of “polarization” or “blind hatred on both sides.” it’s because one side still teaches its children that stabbing Jews is holy, while the other side keeps producing peace offers that get met with suicide bombers.

so no, it’s not Israel that needs “denazification," it’s Hamas, and the international discourse that keeps laundering its atrocities with false equivalences.
 
i wrote the response myself then sent it to chatgpt to correct the grammar, spellings, make it punchier and flow better.

AS ONE DOES.
 
joanne said:
erases Palestinian agency and infantilizes millions of people who chose jihadist leadership.
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Well, given that the last Israeli election was 2022, I assume you are fine with Israelis being held equally as accountable for the genocide being perpetrated by Netanyahu and his government as you hold Palestinians responsible for Hamas?
 
joanne said:
infantilised millions of people who chose jihadist leadership.
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Millions of people didn’t choose jihadist leadership. Gaza didn’t even have a million voters in 2006 and only 44.45% voted for Hamas. Given how youthful the population of Gaza is, well over 70% of them have never had the opportunity to vote for anyone, so blaming them for Hamas and suggesting the they are reaping what they have sewn isn’t really fair.
 
joanne said:
you’re backpedaling. if Israel’s “regime” needs to be “denazified,” that’s not a neutral "policy critique," it’s Holocaust inversion, language deliberately chosen to smear Jews with the crimes committed against them. pretending that’s just about Netanyahu’s cabinet is revisionism at best, gaslighting at worst.

second, the “Israel funded Hamas” talking point is a distortion. israel, like the U.S. in Afghanistan, played tactical games it later regretted. but Hamas isn’t some Frankenstein created in a lab. it was elected by Palestinians in 2006, it rules Gaza with an iron fist, and it continues to be openly celebrated in Palestinian public life. trying to reframe Hamas as a mere Israeli project erases Palestinian agency and infantilizes millions of people who chose jihadist leadership.

third, your “both sides” framing is lazy equivalence. Israel is a democracy whose government changes by election. Hamas is a theocratic death cult that hasn’t allowed an election in almost 20 years and literally writes genocide into its charter. to conflate them is to collapse the difference between flawed governance and fanatical mass murder.

lastly, the “two states” line ignores a brutal truth that I have repeated numerous times but keeps falling on death ears: Palestinians have rejected a state every time it’s been offered, 5 times, because each deal required them to accept a Jewish state next door. the reason that ship has sailed isn’t because of “polarization” or “blind hatred on both sides.” it’s because one side still teaches its children that stabbing Jews is holy, while the other side keeps producing peace offers that get met with suicide bombers.

so no, it’s not Israel that needs “denazification," it’s Hamas, and the international discourse that keeps laundering its atrocities with false equivalences.
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How is that me backpedaling? You literally misquoted me and I pointed out exactly what I said in my post. I'll also happily point out that I stand by what I said. Conflating the current regime with the whole modern state of Israel throughout its existence shows how little you know about its history and politics. Which ever way you look it, the current government is far right government with extremist members who have called out for ethnic cleansing. And that has nothing to do with the decades of Israeli politics that have preceded it.

I have had this discussion about the two state solution quite a few times and very often it's a moot discussion when either side is so binary and views the other side as monolithic and inherently evil. Though I'd be interested in knowing what sort of state you think the Palestinians deserve, if any.
 
Israel has carried out airstrikes in Qatar, marking the fifth different country it has targeted since 2023.
 
Bless her. You can hear the loss and disappointment in her voice. I do think the comments she’s referring to were a bit heavy handed and generalist and no good was going to come of it, but she has a right to air her frustrations and you know it comes from a good place

 
What a stupid stupid move. The Americans are pissed; Qatar, the ONLY reliable center for diplomacy in the ME, is pissed. I get he wants to make a show of force, but calling this move politically foolish is an understatement. Exterminating one more Irani rat is not going to be worth the political alienation.

I'd like to say that this all might finally put Iran, or at least some of its lunatic proxies, in their place, but with these barbaric regimes things can always get worse. I'm sure they'll be babbling on about "Death to [insert name here]" by next week.
 
joanne said:
girl their prime minister and foreign minister publicly defend Hamas
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As far as I know, only Mohammed bin Abdulrahman II has "publicly defended" Hamas. Regardless, no matter how 'compromised' the Qatari government may be, these audacious attacks are not a net win. Israel is LESS safe after this latest attack, not more. The attack on Iran's nuclear program is about the limit of audacity Arab nations are willing to tolerate from Israel. With these Qatari attacks, Netanyahu is now inevitably being perceived as overreaching and it's worsened Israel's relationship with both its adversaries and its allies. You can have the strongest conviction in Netanyahu's cause but none of it will matter if he continues to burn Israel's remaining bridges and put a target on its back.
 


And on the key point that seemed to be the only defence of people claiming it wasn't, that there wasn't intent:

On the basis of fully conclusive evidence, the Commission finds that statements made by Israeli authorities are direct evidence of genocidal intent. Additionally, on the basis of circumstantial evidence, the Commission finds that genocidal intent was the only reasonable inference that could be drawn based on the pattern of conduct of the Israeli authorities. Thus, the Commission concludes that the Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces have the genocidal intent to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip
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The full analysis of intent starts page 48.
 
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octophone said:
Have they published where they believe the state's boundaries lie?
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The UK is to recognise a Palestinian state based provisionally on 1967 borders, before Israel occupied the Gaza Strip and West Bank. It will also pave the way for full diplomatic relations, with the Palestinian head of mission, Husam Zomlot, likely to be upgraded to full ambassadorial status.
 
VoR said:
The UK is to recognise a Palestinian state based provisionally on 1967 borders, before Israel occupied the Gaza Strip and West Bank. It will also pave the way for full diplomatic relations, with the Palestinian head of mission, Husam Zomlot, likely to be upgraded to full ambassadorial status.
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I see. I can see why they went for that, I think.
 
I don't know why Starmer is making such a song and dance about this like he's waiting for a gold star or something. Great that it has happened but the right will hate it and the left will moan that it took way too long (it did).

Maybe if they could spend some of this effort being used to SIGN PAPERWORK and maybe save some lives or something?
 
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